[tc]

Free with Climber this month. Don't know if I like it or not. Any opinions?

[account_inactive]

I think you like it

[Fiend]

I'd suggest you probably do like it if only for it being a new guide, but are wracked with feelings of guilt and self-loathing for appreciating a product of the McRockax capitalist empire.

[tc]

You may be right. I might like it. Someone make up my mind for me.

[saltbeef]

you do. how does greg?

[sharkey]

Why is it that rockfax seem hellbent on turning quite, pristine climbing locations into polished/ trashed venues in just few years, those wishing to seek a little soul in thier art, kiss good bye to solitude and embrace the masses MTV style, accept the latest fad.

If you want to see a place where the experiment went wrong just visit the happy boulders U.S.A, crowded ,polished and fecked.

[AndyR]

Why is it that rockfax seem hellbent on turning quite, pristine climbing locations into polished/ trashed venues in just few years, those wishing to seek a little soul in thier art, kiss good bye to solitude and embrace the masses MTV style, accept the latest fad.

If you want to see a place where the experiment went wrong just visit the happy boulders U.S.A, crowded ,polished and fecked.

Why do you think a couple of blokes are 'hellbent' on wrecking climbing locations? I'm no rockfax apologist, and find some of the 'news'-whoreing on their web-site a little rich for my blood, but I don't understand why they seem to have become such a target for vilification on this site in particular.
Do you feel the same way about everyone who produces a guidebook? The authors of the N. Wales and Peak guidebooks received nothing but praise in this forum, yet the minute rockfax print a guide, they are slagged off.
What gives?

[sharkey]

I guess because they do it for financial reasons, the local tourist board produces leaflets to increase numbers, rockfax does it to sell guide books.
The format just smacks of commercialization.

If you have a passion for something you will soon find the info required without being handed it on a plate, we don't need increased numbers to this game surely?, other guide book editors such as panton and davies -  produce with a passion at a grass roots level, info to decypher and go forth, it is entirely up to the individual to purchase a guide, but a freebie to increase circulation?

[AndyR]

I guess because they do it for financial reasons, the local tourist board produces leaflets to increase numbers, rockfax does it to sell guide books.
The format just smacks of commercialization.

If you have a passion for something you will soon find the info required without being handed it on a plate, we don't need increased numbers to this game surely?, other guide book editors such as panton and davies -  produce with a passion at a grass roots level, info to decypher and go forth, it is entirely up to the individual to purchase a guide, but a freebie to increase circulation?

Are the authors of the peak and n. wales guidebooks out of pocket after publishing their guides? I really don't know the answer, but I'd be surprised if all that effort to make the guides look nice, with pictures, stylised formatting, adverts inside etc was simply due to them being more 'core' or rootsy.

It's all commercial shurely? Just some of it is more blatent.

[dave]

thing that freaks me about rockfax these days is this seamingly formulaic factory-production-line approach to guidebooks these days. I prefer guide done by local enthusiasts at grass roots (like the peak bouldering, northwales, the cloggy guide, roaches, burbage and all the previous BMC peak guide etc) as i think these are the best guides available. i like a guide i can read when dropping the kids off at the pool, and you just can't do that with a rockfax guide its like trying to read the argos catalogue.

For me it seems that more and more rockfax is like rockfax is the carling and boddingtons of the guidebook world, when i prefer a nice local ale. Holler.

Plus mick is a cunt. :wink:

[Soxs]

Without getting to caught up in this, i believe there to be room for both styles of guide, and broardly speaking the more guides the merrier. I agree with Dave that BMC/Local guides are a better read; however I think you must also bear in mind when a guide is published. Western grit filled a pretty big gap for a year an still offers crags not yet given the Grimmer treatment.

On the Lakes issue I think I can wait for gregs, for loads of reasons. The main one being - Why buy a guide to places that are already covered in (probably) greater depth somewhere else.

PS met Mick last year, seemed a nice bloke

[webbo]

You may be right. I might like it. Someone make up my mind for me.

you'll think its crap.
i went there a couple of years ago with a vague description of a few problems on the northern group posted on here by nige and managed to work out what was what.looking at the topo and the way its photographed and the sequence of the problems it took me 15 mins to find the problems i'd done.

[Pantontino]

I think if you are going to criticise RF, then attacking their marketing methods is the wrong place to start. Of coarse they are going to want to maximise sales. Anybody who financially exposes them selves to produce and publish a guidebook will be anxious to make sure that they get back in the black as soon as possible. If I had been more organised I would have put out a supplement in the mags for the N Wales Bouldering guide. As it was I was so stressed out at the time, all I managed to do was put some example pages on line – same principle though.

I think what is needed in these guidebook slanging matches is a bit of balance. I think everybody should drop the prejudice and start debating honestly about what is, or isn't ‘good quality' in modern guides rather than just sticking to polar positions. This applies just as much to what I've read on UKC as to what I've seen on here or heard down the pub.
I could easily give you valid criticisms of both RF and all the ‘locally produced' guides that Dave mentioned.

One final point: the BMC produced guides should really be top quality – after all their production is subsidised by a full time paid officer and an army of volunteers. Furthermore, they benefit from the full marketing might of the BMC. If these guides were anything less than amazing, then Dave Turnbull would have some awkward questions to answer.

As for Mick - I'll vouch for him. He may be a wind up merchant, but he's alright really, and whatever you think about the subsequent mutation of Rockfax, you have to respect his pivotal role in the development of modern guidebooks.

[Mick Ryan]

Why is it that rockfax seem hellbent on turning quite, pristine climbing locations into polished/ trashed venues in just few years, those wishing to seek a little soul in thier art, kiss good bye to solitude and embrace the masses MTV style, accept the latest fad.

If you want to see a place where the experiment went wrong just visit the happy boulders U.S.A, crowded ,polished and fecked.

Maybe you can think of several bouldering and climbing areas that have suffered from the weight of many climbers feet and hands.

Guidebooks, any guidebooks are responsible for directing 'us' to climbing areas, as is word of mouth, this and all climbing websites, magazines, dvd's etc etc

The Happy Boulders.....Buttermilk situations, which you talk of with great ignorance, are very similar to situations that you will find in the UK, and like in the UK, climbers there (including me) have been very pro-active as regards mitigating the effects of our activities.

Mick

[Mick Ryan]

As for Mick - I'll vouch for him.

As for Alan James - I'll vouch for him. As grassroots as any UK climber.

Mick

[Mick Ryan]

and whatever you think about the subsequent mutation of Rockfax, you have to respect his pivotal role in the development of modern guidebooks.

I saw a need, Alan ran with it, and his effect has been profound. It has touched your work Simon, the BMC guidebooks and even the climbing magazines.

It's evolution, not mutation, as you will find out when you 'run with' Ground Up. You will have no choice unless you are supported by grants or some trust fund.

All guidebooks in the UK are grassroots efforts.

Mick

[Pantontino]

Ain't no grants or trust fund propping me up (Not sure why you thought fit to imply that that was the case?). Ground Up is entirely at the mercy of the free market.

Sure, Alan's 'development' ('mutation' means 'change' in my rather fat dictionary) of the Rockfax guides has been an influence on everybody in climbing media, but there is still plenty that I dislike, just as there is plenty that I dislike about volunteer produced guides.

Maybe I'm too close to it all (I spend most of my working hours thinking about guidebooks), but I do get sick of people declaring that 'such and such' guidebook is a flawless expression of the state of the art. All guidebooks are flawed in some way or other.

And finally, 'grassroots' credentials, however you define it, are important, but are not a guarantee of quality.

[Mick Ryan]

Ain't no grants or trust fund propping me up (Not sure why you thought fit to imply that that was the case?). Ground Up is entirely at the mercy of the free market.

I wasn't implying any such thing Simon. I was talking from my own experience here in the USA (trust fund central) and of the situation with the BMC who in the past have had people in charge who did what they liked rather than what climbers wanted and needed. That's changed now (changed is better than mutation or evolution).

Maybe I'm too close to it all (I spend most of my working hours thinking about guidebooks), but I do get sick of people declaring that 'such and such' guidebook is a flawless expression of the state of the art. All guidebooks are flawed in some way or other.

Preaching to the choir there.

And finally, 'grassroots' credentials, however you define it, are important, but are not a guarantee of quality.

All UK guidebooks are grassroots productions.

[sharkey]

Mick perhaps my stance is a little polarised, but regarding the Happy boulders i have been there and was dismayed by the numbers, perhaps the bubble has now burst on the bouldering boom in Bishop, from what i gather a lot of the locals were pretty outraged at the sudden influx of visitors to this area, thanks in no small terms to an advertising campaign by rockfax, Coca Cola would be proud of !  :roll:

[Mick Ryan]

Mick perhaps my stance is a little polarised, but regarding the Happy boulders i have been there and was dismayed by the numbers, perhaps the bubble has now burst on the bouldering boom in Bishop, from what i gather a lot of the locals were pretty outraged at the sudden influx of visitors to this area, thanks in no small terms to an advertising campaign by rockfax, Coca Cola would be proud of !  :roll:

There was no advertising campaign. Somebody called Bill McChesney first approached the magazines with a Happy Boulders Mini guide. On hearing this I approached the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and told them of an imminent increase in visitors to the Volcanic Tableland. My approach started a relationship between myself and Joe Pollini and Jim Jennings at the BLM which has lasted for about 10 years.

Since 1994, due to the interest in bouldering worldwide and its attendant media interest, the Happy Boulders and other areas became popular.

There are two major population centers within a days drive of Bishop, LA and SF. Lots of climbers who like bouldering live there.

If anyone can't live with the impacts that we cause when climbing, stop climbing, as the climbing media cannot be stopped. If you can live with it, make sure you behave in a low impact manner and if you can, do more.

Says Mick busy finishing off the Happy Boulders map as he speaks.

M

[saltbeef]

Sharkey. You don't think the fact that Biishop seems to be in a photo in every american mag, or every american video from the last 5 or so years might possibly have something to do with it. I didn't even know Rockfax did a guide for it, but I know about Bishop... I wonder how?

[sharkey]

Yes pointing the finger directly at rockfax is probably unfair, i'm as guilty as any, i fell for the media package, the exotic location, expecting to find a bouldering Nirvana, i was caught up in the stampede, in reality paradise lost, due as far as i'm concerned to the mass commercialization of bouldering,  rockfax USA were part of this.

[AndyR]

due as far as i'm concerned to the mass commercialization of bouldering,

You, know, I hear this quite a lot, and I just don't buy it - what do you mean by 'mass commercialism'? The way I see it, it's just an aspect of climbing that has received more coverage than others recently, and that, as a result, has generated new marketing and product angles for the companies/people that sell gear to climbers.......

Reminds me of sport climbing back in the day........

[al]

people love having rockfax around to bitch about, it helps them define themselves as hardcore and underground. niff does a sterling service to all, in that respect. the irony is that he is actually more grass roots than most of his detractors (as MR says).
if rockfax happen to get there first, it just reflects the apathy of the locals to produce guides themselves
anyway rockfax and BMC are history, ground up are in the house  

[Bowie]

ground up - good name!