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Aching muscles (Read 6245 times)

Bubba

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Aching muscles
April 17, 2003, 09:56:35 am
I'm finding that after some heavy training sessions I end up with bad muscle aches, not straight after or the day after the session, but *two* days afterwards.

I'm well aware that not enough warming up / down sufficiently might cause this, but I'd expect that to be much sooner afterwards. Also, I do think my warmup / down is fine - Is this overtraining, or is some aching just part of the normal rebuilding process of muscles?

Dave Flanagan

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#1 Re: Aching muscles
April 17, 2003, 10:09:00 am
Quote from: "Bubba"
I'm finding that after some heavy training sessions I end up with bad muscle aches, not straight after or the day after the session, but *two* days afterwards.

I'm well aware that not enough warming up / down sufficiently might cause this, but I'd expect that to be much sooner afterwards. Also, I do think my warmup / down is fine - Is this overtraining, or is some aching just part of the normal rebuilding process of muscles?


I am also usually  stiffer (eeeerrrr) after 2 days. There is a really good Yahoo group called trainging from climbing http://groups.yahoo.com/group/trainingforclimbing/ that is owned by this guy who knows his stuff.

I think it is called DOMS Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness and is basically a sign that you where doing something you weren't used to, I suppose it (DOMS) could be used as a sign that your indoor or usual training isn't preparing you for hard bouldering outside (which is the case for me)? -

(I am paraphrasing  from below)




From:   "Andrew Pacey" <a_pacey@h...>
Date:  Sun Nov 10, 2002  4:22 pm
Subject:  Reducing DOMS?
 

Once again I couldn't resist re-posting information from the Supertraining
list. This one is on DOMS, or "delayed onset muscle soreness", which you may
get following intense exercise.

DOMS generally occurs when you change the parameters of your training --
i.e. introduce new exercises, or increase the volume and/or intensity. It is
a commonly held belief that stretching post-workout can reduce DOMS but as
Mel Siff points out, it is a myth. There may be other benefits to
stretching, however, so this is not to say one should avoid stretching after
training altogether.

--------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jason" <jmelnyk@u...>
Reply-To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Supertraining] Reducing DOMS?
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 02:36:46 -0000

Mel Siff mentioned that stretching post-exercise, doesn't reduce DOMS,
so what does? I am a personal trainer and I recommend a good 5 to 10
minute cool down and from my experience I've found this helps reduce
muscle soreness. Have there been any studies on a cool down (walking
on a treadmill)and its effects on relieving DOMS?

Jason Melnyk
College Park, MD

[There have been a huge number of studies on the effect of stretching,
jogging, supplements, heat, cold, drugs, you name it .... and virtually
nothing has yet been found that appears to make some significant and
consistent difference to the dissipation of DOMS. Do a Medline search
and you will see what I mean. Many higher level weightlifters and
ppwerlifters rarely if ever suffer from DOMS even after very heavy
workouts, which afflicts mainly newcomers to a given exercise or
routine - or certain more susceptible individuals. For general recovery,
I have found it difficult to beat sensible program (or periodisation) design
and
hot-cold contrast bathing, as I have written in previous letters. Your
recommendation to do some mild post-exercise activity probably is
a sound idea for general relaxation and recovery, but it has not been
shown to have any real effect on DOMS. Mel Siff]


-------------------------------------------------------

Any comments or questions?

Andrew Pacey
TFC Moderator



Bubba

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#2 Aching muscles
April 17, 2003, 10:27:19 am
That's a very interesting post - cheers for that!

That would make sense as the session was a very hard weights session and the main aches are shoulders where I was doing some new exercises. I guess it'd be sensible to introduce new exercises on lower weights for a few sessions.

I think you're right in saying that  the training isn't the ideal preperation for outdoor bouldering, but then I'm not doing this training just for bouldering, so in some ways, that's a good sign!

T.H.

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#3 Aching muscles
April 29, 2003, 09:36:03 am
No-one exactly knows what DOMS is.  Some people think it is residual lactic acid (unlikely), others think it's protein degradation, and others think it's disruption to the actin/myosin protein filaments which has got the most support.

It's caused by intense muscle activity, either endurance or strength, and is generally worse the more intense the activity.  The fitter someone is, the sooner and less severe DOMS occurs, which is why you got it two days later after working muscles you weren't used to working.  In contrast, good climbers will rarely get DOMS in there forearms, biceps, lats etc. because they have trained these muscles to a high degree, unless they dramatically increase the intensity of their training.

Research seems to suggest that mild DOMS is a good sign that your work-out has produced the desired protein break-down needed for hypertrophy of muscle fibres and increased neuro-muscular control.  However, severe DOMS can be a sign of protein injury which has a negative effect on the muscle and should obviously be avoided.

As long as you give yourself sufficient recovery times, which can be up to 6 days, DOMS shouldn't cause a problem.

Bubba

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#4 Aching muscles
April 29, 2003, 09:45:16 am
Cheers - that all seems to makes sense - I've done the same training routine twice since (shoulders), with progressively less aching after each session, so I think it's just the case of muscles that hadn't been worked for a long time.

Actual results have been quite good, as I've got quite a lot stronger in those muscles, so probably getting the degree of training about right, ie no damage.

T.H.

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#5 Aching muscles
April 29, 2003, 10:28:13 am
What muscles are you trying to work in your shoulders?

Being the geek I am, I've recently been working together with one of my lecturers, analysing the most common movements in bouldering, and the muscles involved.  As a result of matching this knowledge with training techniques I've changed my training dramatically, and after a few weeks I've never been stronger.  No actual climbing involved, just weights, and weighted pull-ups.  It lacks the specificity of simply climbing, but definitely allows for greater overload of the muscles which can then be adapted to climbing once the training period is over.

It has meant that I can't really get out on the rock, but I've done some good stuff recently, and feel the sacrifice will be worth it.

I can produce a specific training programme for the site if you like, but I'm not sure what the legal issues are.  Don't want people hurting themselves and suing you.

Bubba

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#6 Aching muscles
April 29, 2003, 10:35:21 am
I'm just doing general weights for a while, rather than  stuff specifically for bouldering, which means that my finger strength won't be helped, but I need to just get some general fitness back into my life.

The exercises were:

- seated dumbell press (start palms in, finish palms out)
- standing straight arm dumbell raise (in front)
- standing cable one arm deltoid raise

3 sets of each, only light weights on last two.  

You got any gym exercises that will work your fingers?

Something akin to Neil Gresham's training pages would be brilliant, and a disclaimer can always be added.....  :D

dobbin

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#7 Aching muscles
April 29, 2003, 12:36:00 pm
Getting back to the DOMS thing, I have heard (though the pasted post seems to contradict this) that protein supplementation can be a good way to avoid the onset of DOMS. I have tried it on a couple of occasions and to be honest I haven't ached the next day when I think (!) normally I would have done.

Clearly any supplement can only go so far to help, but perhaps its worth considering. Oh, and it tastes like baby sick.

T.H.

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#8 Aching muscles
April 29, 2003, 12:37:38 pm
There are free weight exercises for training finger flex strength, but I see little point in them as they all involve isotonic (moving) contractions of the muscle which is never used in climbing.  The best training for finger strength is isometric (static) contractions in different grip types ranging from fat slopers to tiny crimps, I train on three types of hold - a sloper, a 1 3/4 inch slightly sloping edge, and a 3/4 inch slightly sloping edge, anything smaller just bruises your tips.  The best way to do this is combine it with weighted pull-up training on differing hold types.  If you want to work finger strength but not other muscles, just do straight arm weighted dead hangs on differing muscles.

I'll e-mail you later with some thoughts on producing some training pages.

Bubba

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#9 Aching muscles
April 29, 2003, 12:39:11 pm
Quote from: "dobbin"
. Oh, and it tastes like baby sick.


Yummy! Hand me the liquid liver....

Bubba

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#10 Aching muscles
April 29, 2003, 12:41:02 pm
Quote from: "T.H."
There are free weight exercises for training finger flex strength, but I see little point in them as they all involve isotonic (moving) contractions of the muscle which is never used in climbing.

Yeah, that's the problem - I'm going to have to build a hang board I reckon.

Quote from: "T.H."

I'll e-mail you later with some thoughts on producing some training pages.


Ok, sound.

dobbin

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#11 Aching muscles
April 29, 2003, 12:44:35 pm
I'll contribute loads of really dangerous and reckless self harm techniques to a training forum. I'm a bloody guru you know.

Me bored? no.

 

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