[Bubba]

Sooooo, now the rumoured venue(s) are now "official", what the hell is it called, and who's been there?

There's some stuff on Justfunk's scorecard but doesn't give much away!

[dave]

How the feck does he have come by the conclusion that doing a problem 3rd go counts as an "onsight"?

Onsight means that you make it first try and have no info, whatsoever, about it, except from what you can observe from the ground.

[RichardB]

Surely giude book info doesn't spoil an onsight?

Also, what would you claim if you had gone somewhere to do a specific problem and as you walked around the corner someone was toping out? Do we take ethics too far?

Walks of muttering to himself.....

[dave]

I think guide/topo is excepted, or else how are you going to find a particular problem.

[Bubba]

Depends how far you want to take it - I've been out bouldering with James and he's actually faced out from the crag whilst somebody does a problem, so that he can get a pure onsight ascent.

If you've watched all your mates do a problem before you do it, then you can't really claim an onsight.

Anyway, and without wanting to get into some huge ethical ramble, you certainly can't claim an onsight for your 3rd attempt.....but then Justin might have just been taking the piss anyway.....

[Dave Flanagan]

Depends how far you want to take it - I've been out bouldering with James and he's actually faced out from the crag whilst somebody does a problem, so that he can get a pure onsight ascent.

I thought onsighting didn't really apply, just flashing boulder problems.

I don't think its (onsighting) in the spirit of the whole thing, for me its all about solving the problem with a few mates, not having one someone "facing out from the crag..."

Where as I can understand that someone (a sly dog) might wait for the others to figure out the moves and then step up to the plate for a flash while bouldering.

Onsight make more sense on routes when there is less likely to be an group watching the climber also most problems are quite viewable from the ground, you don't need to worry about trick gear and there might be long sequence dependant sections etc.

A flash is an unambigous and simple term and is the only one I would use to apply to bouldering. What about you?

[dave]

I agree, for me the point is to do the problem eventually. If i do it first go, then all the better. I would only claim an "onsight" of a problem if i tried it without having seen anyone on it before and done it first go, don't think i would even deliberatley abstain from beta though. As long as you claim whatever you do honestly is all that counts, especially since claiming "onsight" on 8a.nu gives you points of a problem 2 grades harder....but obviosuly its best to have read and understoood the rules first.

[Bubba]

Hmmmm..... there is still a difference between an onsight and a flash, but I agree, the issue is less clear cut with bouldering since you can generally stand there and see the whole problem before you start. But then some people have been known to bring binoculars to the crag for routes!!

The example I gave about James is only one incident - he doesn't do that all the time!! I think it's something that he wanted to do without prior knowledge and I admire his "ethical purity".  For myself, sometimes it's great to just do things with no prior knowledge when you go to a new crag or something, but I'm not that arsed about it to not watch my mates having a go.

[Bubba]

yeah, for me it's about getting up the problem eventually as well - often, the problem solving process and when it finally "clicks" is part of the attraction of the whole thing...

[Scouse D]

admire his "ethical purity".

What a load of crap. This is bouldering we're talking about- not headpointing!
 This most certainly ain't a question of ethics!!!It would've(hopefully) been James decision to face away not because of some bizarre ethical stance but just to make it more challenging(or increase his 8a.nu point score-both valid reasons). I don't try to flash problems for the "purity", but because I like bearing down and I want to make sure all the training didn't go to waste.
If i don't flash a problem I work it to death-does this make me unclean?

[Bubba]

Course it's a question of ethics - why do you think 8a.nu give more points for an onsight? Because it's deemed a "purer" ascent.  Perhaps "pure" is the wrong choice of word, and that's why I've put it in quotes. "more impressive" / "more noteworthy" /  "etc"

Anyway, this was an example and only James can really know why he did that. He might have just been making it harder for himself like you say.

Your reasons for wanting to flash problems might not necessarily be the same as anyone elses.

[Bubba]

This thread highlights why I think the whole scorecard thing sucks in the first place - it makes it all too competitive and starts stupid ethical point scoring - surely it's better to just fucking enjoy it?

[dave]

To be honest i wouldn't say the difference between onsight and flash is a question of ethics - 8a.nu are giving more point for onsight cos they acknowledge its more difficult to do the majority of problems without beta, not because its ethically more pure. Bouldering has always been about doing something at your personal limit, not really much to do with onsighting.

What I'm trying to say is the best boulderers in the world are not those who onsight everything they do, but those who do the hardest problems.

[Bubba]

Thinking about this, yeah, ok, I think I'm confusing ethics and difficulty here, and am borrowing from the world of roped climbing, where the two are in many ways intertwined (it's harder to place gear on lead, etc). I suppose that more *value*can be attached to an onsight/flash/whatever because it's harder, but no, that's not part of the code of bouldering ethics.

[Bubba]

If i don't flash a problem I work it to death-does this make me unclean?

Yes, sinner!!

Not what I meant really - bad choice of words on my part.

[Dave Flanagan]

Fair play to James I wasn't dis-respecting him.

I think that the only time the term onsight is really relevant is for the odd problem that has a really un-obvious (sp?)  sequence.

Seeing someone stand up on a shit smear isn't really that helpful.

[Scouse D]

Not what I meant really - bad choice of words on my part

No worries Bubba.
Bouldering has only a few ethical points to consider-chipping, wire brushing, excessive tick marking(like the punters who've used west side story as a blank canvas for their own brand of artwork)etc...number of attempts ain't one of them.

[tom]

so from all that i take it no one does know where the new porth ysgo stuff is

[Bubba]

Pantontino can provide directions, though he's not yet been himself. I think FatboySlimfast was going to have a look this weekend so he might be able to tell us too.

[tom]

the location of one of the new porth ysgo crags was in this months climber or on on the edge (not sure which) and it's the really obvious crag you see as you drive in, not that imprssed it's much more slabby than it looks from the road and its really broken up, but hey there might be some good stuff we didn't see. i'll just wait till it's been cleaned chalked and graded

[David S]

If it's the edge up on the left of the village of Rhuw then its very gritstone-esque and quite good. I climbed there in the late 80's with a couple of mates and did what we thought were a load of new routes (written up in Pete's Eats) and a load of boulder problem on low roofs, etc. Some needed a bit of cleaning and a few had the odd friable hold but on the whole the quality was very good and worth a visit up there.
I've even got some pics somewhere - I'll dig them out and post a couple.

Cheers
David S

[Johnny Brown]

Ahh yes Rhiwbage edge. Every man and his dog has made one visit since about 1959 when they built the road.

To be honest I was hoping it wasn't the 'new' crag as its not that good, and as I remember has landings worse than burbage south. Still it would be really good if it was documented properly, even the Lleyn guide has shied away from it three times.

Maybe there's a real secret venue yet...

[Johnny Brown]

Having said that it has got probably the best view in wales at sunset.
 
Thats not that David Sneddon above is it? Didn't know he climbed.

[Bubba]

I got the impression from the hype that it was another Ysgo style seaside crag...but not sure - Justin can probably put us right if he pops in here again sometime, not seen him for a while.....

[dave]

Yeah i thought it was some other coastal crag.

Is this othe rcrag the one you see as you drive to PY up on a hillside facing away from the sea? I remember thinking it looked good and soemone was bound to have climbed there.