[Bonjoy]

On a number of occasions people have reported new holds having appeared on grit in the last few years and have automatically assumed they must be chipped/ brushed. In many cases (including a recentish reports of damage to Rowtor and Newstones)I have been of the opinion that the damage was a cumulative effect of heavy user pressure on soft rock, and have argued to this effect here as well as on UKC. Part of my argument has been that rock close to the ground is often moist due to soaking up water from the surrounding soil (rising damp), with rock above (often seperated by a natural damp proof layer formed by horizontal breaks) being harder and less vulnerable. Hence answering the question " If it's user pressure why does the rock not just polish like my favourite VSs at Stanage?", and explaining why some boulder problems seem to suffer rapid erosion, particularly when compared with most grit routes.
 I'm not sure everyone was wholey convinced of my point. To those people can I ask you to go take a look at the bottom of the boulder problem right of Bulb at Eagle tor. On the right was a big jug in a break with a heelhook next to it. Over time the heel placement had work into the classic scoop which some would call excess brushing and I would call user damage. I was there this Sunday and the whole section of rock (about 80cmx25cmx25cm) has now clean snapped off :shock: . What more proof do you need that some grit is softer than other grit and therefore phantom wire brushing does not need to be evoked to explain the damage?? I will post a picture later.
 BTW I reclimbed the prob, which was 7a in Rus guide, is now hard 7a+ and I reckon a better prob (apart from the big ugly scar).

[Fiend]

So is the summary of that report that you chipped a hold off a problem because it was too easy??  :shock:  :wink:

[JR]

So is the summary of that report that you chipped a hold off a problem because it was too easy??  :shock:  :wink:

thats what i thought but didnt post as me and bonjoy seem have been getting lost in eachothers (or maybe just my!?!) humour recently....  :? :D

in all seriousness though, i agree with what bonjoys got to say, its kinda intuitive...

[Paz]

It does make sense that if porous rock e.g. grit, can be minging wet on the outside it can be minging wet on the inside too.

[BenF]

Yeah, I pretty much totally agree with your comments Bonjoy.  A quick consideration of the popular grit bouldering venues brings similar examples to mind.  Bridestones is falling apart and there are countless scars that could easily (and mistakenly) be viewed as chipping damage as well as many lower holds or footholds that have undergone the kind of damage you describe, frequently simply because they have been used when wet.  One example I can think of is the foothold at the bottom of the arete on the Worm Traverse at Bridies.  It's nearly always damp and has gradually been falling apart for a while now.

Obviously there is only so much we can do to limit damage through climbing (other than reduced access or banning) but I think we all need to be more considerate of the rock when trying to get in a bit of a sesh in the damp winter months.  I know I'm guilty of sometimes being so desperate to climb that I'll get on stuff that really ain't dry and I've got to accept that this isn't good for the rock and that sometimes I've got to move on or even go inside if the rock isn't dry enough to prevent damage.

[dave]

lovejoy are you telling me that is WASN'T the mystery phantom wirebrushing/chipping bogey man???? Shit dog now we've got no-one to use as a convenient scapegoat.

[Bonjoy]

Here it be. The new sequence goes out left like the old 7a variant. The straight up using the diagonal as a gaston has not been re-climbed and would be pretty hard as there is no foothold to rock onto now.

The scar. The exposed rock is incredibly soft, damp and sandy. The scar on the right is the old heelhook placement.

[SA Chris]

It looks like that charcteristic "soft" grit, of the type you get more of the further west you travel; Bridestones, Staffs etc. Some folk love to hype up these "chips" as being from the result of someone using a wire brush and/or a chisel, but in actual fact it is just he rock wearing away from continual use, and is especially susceptible (sp?) in damp conditions, as well as when the rocks are outcroppings rather than "unconnected" rocks that are lying in/on the ground.

Hard one to make a call on, other than suggest that people people try and avoid these type of rocks in damp conditions. Although it's doubtful anyone would listen anyway, and would just lead to more overuse (is this possible in the Peak?)

[JR]

shit dog, thats a big scar!

[Bonjoy]

Almost as big as some of yours i'll bet!

[DScuffle]

DAB

There's also a problem at Cratcliffe, a sitting start left arete, where the foothold always crumbles.  The old rockfax guide mentions that it grows and dissapears periodically (probably being chipped back to it's original condition :D )

[SA Chris]

"Some grits are softer than others"

From the ice-age to the bouldering age
there is but one concern
I have just discovered

Some grits are softer than others
some grits are softer than others
some grit thuggers are stronger than other grit thuggers

As Bonjoy said to UKB
as he opened a can of worms
oh I say

Some grits are softer than others
some grits are softer than others
some grit thuggers are stronger than other grit thuggers

[JR]

"Some grits are softer than others"

From the ice-age to the bouldering age
there is but one concern
I have just discovered

Some grits are softer than others
some grits are softer than others
some grit thuggers are stronger than other grit thuggers

As Bonjoy said to UKB
as he opened a can of worms
oh I say

Some grits are softer than others
some grits are softer than others
some grit thuggers are stronger than other grit thuggers

thought i'd logged onto rocktalk then...

dont even think about publishing a book of bouldering poems.... ;-)

[clm]

its not poetry fool.... its morriseyesque shamblings.

anyway....along these lines.

hard slab on pock block.

years ago could not touch it and remember using pebble and perhaps a tiny socket to gain enough height to tickle the ramp.. the slab now has two big sandy sockets in (toe sized).  just wear?? i accept that it is most likely to be just wear but the problem now does not merit the mighty B9 grade it once had (my attempts were back in the day so back in the day grades).  once stood in the lower pocket it is all over.  plus i can do it now and i couldnt then - now maybe thats what being embarrased by dense doing it twice in front of you when you keep falling off can do!!

anyway, the question i am trying to squeeze out is.

what to do??
stabilise said pockets with resin?
fill them in?
wait until you can fit your whole feet in them??

[AndyR]

Bono is correct - the cement holding the sand grains together in gritstone is hugely variable, and consists of a mix of clays, iron oxides/hydroxides, calcite, quartz and other accessory minerals - due to the way in that grit was deposited, it can vary from bed to bed (i.e. the composition either side of a horizontal break might be quite different), as well as from area to area - you should also remember that the grit sequences that we climb on are completely separate, so the kinder grits are different from the pendle grits, from the ashover grits etc (this is partly the point that  SAC was making I think).

The difference in composition means that they will behave differently under load, particularly when damp/wet.

Geology 101 endeth....

[SA Chris]

Pretty much what I was trying to say, but also that outcrops seem to absorb moisture more readily than boulders that have rolled to where they are eg Plantation and Burb South?

Am I right about there being more softer ones the further west you travel, or is that coincidental?

[AndyR]

Pretty much what I was trying to say, but also that outcrops seem to absorb moisture more readily than boulders that have rolled to where they are eg Plantation and Burb South?

Am I right about there being more softer ones the further west you travel, or is that coincidental?

Outcrops are potentially linked to groundwater, whereas boulders are obviously not - they also take acidic surface drainage off the peat moorlands above - this may have an effect on the cement - I'm not sure about this, but it would be easy to imagine that water with weak humic acids (run-off from peat) could interact with carbonate cements in the grit.

re spatial variability of weathering - dunno - you might be correct, but I doubt very much whether there's much in the literature that would look at such a thing.

[Pantontino]

What we need is: Crag Repair Man

A roaming geological expert with a large pot of epoxy resin (and a big white 'Crag Repair Man' van.)

Perhaps the BMC could fund such a job, perhaps they could head hunt Andy R?

Perhaps a certain Nidderdale shopkeeper could offer Andy a suitable penthouse suite above his busy boutique.

[webbo]

What we need is: Crag Repair Man

A roaming geolical expert with a large pot of epoxy resin (and a big white 'Crag Repair Man' van.)

Perhaps the BMC could fund such a job, perhaps they could head hunt Andy R?

Perhaps a certain Nidderdale shopkeeper could offer Andy a suitable penthouse suite above his busy boutique.

that would lend its self to a relationship made in heaven.

[AndyR]

What we need is: Crag Repair Man

A roaming geological expert with a large pot of epoxy resin (and a big white 'Crag Repair Man' van.)

Perhaps the BMC could fund such a job, perhaps they could head hunt Andy R?

Perhaps a certain Nidderdale shopkeeper could offer Andy a suitable penthouse suite above his busy boutique.

 
The BMC couldn't afford me :wink:

For some reason, that last paragraph made me think of The League of Gentlemen, and big frank wearing a dress......

[Bonjoy]

[AndyR]

Oh
My
God


Thanks for that Bono - now I won't be able to sleep due to the nightmares.
 :D

[Fiend]

Oh dear God!  :shock:


It took me a frighteningly long time to work out that was another masterpiece!

[andy_e]

suppose he'd be like this guy...

[Bonjoy]

lovejoy are you telling me that is WASN'T the mystery phantom wirebrushing/chipping bogey man????

 The bogey man revealed?

[AndyR]

That'd be the bhogaidhe mhain.....

[Yossarian]

oooh, oooh - can we have a ukb xmas competition?  

The 2005 UKBouldering Photoshop Challenge in association with Sypeland Outdoors. Come up with amusing Photoshopped images and win prizes! Submit a photo and see yourself transformed into an 8a.nu legend overnight.  Prizes include a week on the Isle of Skye, a tripod, and a 50p gift voucher for Sypeland Outdoors*.

*Voucher valid only for purchases of Kendal Mint Cake.  Disclaimer - The weight of FH may go down as well as up.

[SA Chris]

Disclaimer - The weight of FH may go down as well as up.

I've yet to hear of this happening. Should be "The weight of FH may go up as well as up"

[Fiend]

ROFL @ you both!

[Sypeland]

Andy R has just been into the shop and shown me this, It actualy looks more like my Mother.

[Yossarian]

like mother, like son...

[SA Chris]

You mean in a Norman Bates kind of way?

[Sypeland]

You mean in a Norman Bates kind of way?

Carefull, she is leathal with her 12 inch chopper!

[Jim]

there was a lot of talk about trialing stabalizers on soft grit a while back, eg the arete at higgar sandy footholds. did anything come of it?

[Bonjoy]

I got in some an off the shelf product called Stoneseal, which is designed for stabilising eroding sandstone on walls/buildings. Applied some to said arete at Higgar in summer when the rock was dry and took some before and after photos. I need to go back and check how it is doing and take some more pics to see if the hold has changed. Have been somewhat slack about it really. If it has been of some use I will use some on other probs next summer. I don't think it's a good idea to put it on in winter when the rock is damp.

[Paul B]

I think eagle tor must be very soft:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=158898