Quote from: sdm on February 19, 2023, 11:50:51 amI hate to agree with Will on downgrades but Steep Traverse is nowhere close to 6C. Maybe it might have made sense as a grade 30 years ago(?) when the average 6C climber would have had little experience of very steep climbing. Now that everyone learns to climb on a juggy roof indoors, 6C is a joke.That doesn't make sense. It might be the case that there are more people who can do 6C in that style these days, but that doesn't mean it isn't 6C.
I hate to agree with Will on downgrades but Steep Traverse is nowhere close to 6C. Maybe it might have made sense as a grade 30 years ago(?) when the average 6C climber would have had little experience of very steep climbing. Now that everyone learns to climb on a juggy roof indoors, 6C is a joke.
Quote from: Fiend on February 18, 2023, 10:39:56 amQuote from: MischaHY on February 17, 2023, 02:00:30 pmI've been wavering on commenting on this thread but I think it's useful to contribute my perspective. I spent most of my childhood and teenage years being bullied pretty badly for social awkwardness and none-conformity (I suspect due to undiagnosed ADHD amongst other things) and as a result have taken some time to come around to the concept of an enjoyable piss-taking/light mockery amongst friends and acquaintances. However with that in mind though I've come to see it as a useful and funny part of the social experience - but within certain boundaries which avoid causing misunderstanding and emotional escalation/damage. For me this works in the following context: 1) You must always have some level of pre-existing personal relationship with the person you're sharing the piss taking with, whether they are the subject of the piss taking or are joking with you about someone else is is the subject. 2) If the piss taking is happening in a public setting, then the subject should be present and taking part in the discussion. If the person is not 'present' then the discussion should not be public. 3) If the subject cannot be guaranteed to be present then the nature of the joking needs to be kept within appropriate boundaries. And easy filter for this is if you would feel comfortable saying what you're writing directly to the face of someone who you've never met previously and without context. If you're someone who typically struggles to read social cues then it's best to be more cautious. If the piss taking strays outside of these contexts then it's mockery/bullying because the useful and enjoyable social element is lost to one or more of the parties involved and it becomes destructive rather than constructive. The issue with this current discussion (and in a gentler sense, the overall tone of this thread - but I respect that there is nuance with anything that someone has openly published online) is that it's public but unable to meet rule two and is crossing the line on rule three. This is a difficult situation because most people here are making the valid point that there is a useful component to the information delivered and that using humour as a mechanism to deliver it is a good way to do so. The key is to make sure that the subject of the social error can feel a little embarrassed but still see the funny side which allows for constructive social growth and group learning as opposed to ostracisation. This then strengthens both the message and the social dynamic. Happy to be called out but that's my perspective as someone who learnt to love a little fun-poking later in life after much unhappiness.Ooops skimmed over this before but worth replying to as unlike some of the other responses it's an actual attempt to analyse bullying and look at boundaries and rationale and form a coherent argument.Good post, good argument, but it misses the key factor that the subject has deliberately chosen to post (or promote) media to an unlimited public audience showing their dabbing (or whatever). That very public showing I think negates some of your criteria, and makes it quite different to bullying about non-promoted issues. I doubt anyone would advocate trying to hack into someone's private videos or scroll through their phone to find unshared photos to then publicly highlight the subject's dabbing!!Edit: Okay this video is unlisted, but JF , WTF did a skinny cunt 65kg waif need to lie down for a rest on this:I agree with a lot of this but I don't think people use social media that way. I occasionally post vids of climbing on Instagram, mostly cos I like the platform for seeing what my friends and such are up to. I also am quite proud of some of the things I've done so I whack em up. I wouldn't say I'm promoting myselfAs far as bullying goes there has been bullying on this site while I've been here. I think it's an important thing to talk about.
Quote from: MischaHY on February 17, 2023, 02:00:30 pmI've been wavering on commenting on this thread but I think it's useful to contribute my perspective. I spent most of my childhood and teenage years being bullied pretty badly for social awkwardness and none-conformity (I suspect due to undiagnosed ADHD amongst other things) and as a result have taken some time to come around to the concept of an enjoyable piss-taking/light mockery amongst friends and acquaintances. However with that in mind though I've come to see it as a useful and funny part of the social experience - but within certain boundaries which avoid causing misunderstanding and emotional escalation/damage. For me this works in the following context: 1) You must always have some level of pre-existing personal relationship with the person you're sharing the piss taking with, whether they are the subject of the piss taking or are joking with you about someone else is is the subject. 2) If the piss taking is happening in a public setting, then the subject should be present and taking part in the discussion. If the person is not 'present' then the discussion should not be public. 3) If the subject cannot be guaranteed to be present then the nature of the joking needs to be kept within appropriate boundaries. And easy filter for this is if you would feel comfortable saying what you're writing directly to the face of someone who you've never met previously and without context. If you're someone who typically struggles to read social cues then it's best to be more cautious. If the piss taking strays outside of these contexts then it's mockery/bullying because the useful and enjoyable social element is lost to one or more of the parties involved and it becomes destructive rather than constructive. The issue with this current discussion (and in a gentler sense, the overall tone of this thread - but I respect that there is nuance with anything that someone has openly published online) is that it's public but unable to meet rule two and is crossing the line on rule three. This is a difficult situation because most people here are making the valid point that there is a useful component to the information delivered and that using humour as a mechanism to deliver it is a good way to do so. The key is to make sure that the subject of the social error can feel a little embarrassed but still see the funny side which allows for constructive social growth and group learning as opposed to ostracisation. This then strengthens both the message and the social dynamic. Happy to be called out but that's my perspective as someone who learnt to love a little fun-poking later in life after much unhappiness.Ooops skimmed over this before but worth replying to as unlike some of the other responses it's an actual attempt to analyse bullying and look at boundaries and rationale and form a coherent argument.Good post, good argument, but it misses the key factor that the subject has deliberately chosen to post (or promote) media to an unlimited public audience showing their dabbing (or whatever). That very public showing I think negates some of your criteria, and makes it quite different to bullying about non-promoted issues. I doubt anyone would advocate trying to hack into someone's private videos or scroll through their phone to find unshared photos to then publicly highlight the subject's dabbing!!Edit: Okay this video is unlisted, but JF , WTF did a skinny cunt 65kg waif need to lie down for a rest on this:
I've been wavering on commenting on this thread but I think it's useful to contribute my perspective. I spent most of my childhood and teenage years being bullied pretty badly for social awkwardness and none-conformity (I suspect due to undiagnosed ADHD amongst other things) and as a result have taken some time to come around to the concept of an enjoyable piss-taking/light mockery amongst friends and acquaintances. However with that in mind though I've come to see it as a useful and funny part of the social experience - but within certain boundaries which avoid causing misunderstanding and emotional escalation/damage. For me this works in the following context: 1) You must always have some level of pre-existing personal relationship with the person you're sharing the piss taking with, whether they are the subject of the piss taking or are joking with you about someone else is is the subject. 2) If the piss taking is happening in a public setting, then the subject should be present and taking part in the discussion. If the person is not 'present' then the discussion should not be public. 3) If the subject cannot be guaranteed to be present then the nature of the joking needs to be kept within appropriate boundaries. And easy filter for this is if you would feel comfortable saying what you're writing directly to the face of someone who you've never met previously and without context. If you're someone who typically struggles to read social cues then it's best to be more cautious. If the piss taking strays outside of these contexts then it's mockery/bullying because the useful and enjoyable social element is lost to one or more of the parties involved and it becomes destructive rather than constructive. The issue with this current discussion (and in a gentler sense, the overall tone of this thread - but I respect that there is nuance with anything that someone has openly published online) is that it's public but unable to meet rule two and is crossing the line on rule three. This is a difficult situation because most people here are making the valid point that there is a useful component to the information delivered and that using humour as a mechanism to deliver it is a good way to do so. The key is to make sure that the subject of the social error can feel a little embarrassed but still see the funny side which allows for constructive social growth and group learning as opposed to ostracisation. This then strengthens both the message and the social dynamic. Happy to be called out but that's my perspective as someone who learnt to love a little fun-poking later in life after much unhappiness.
I always struggle telling a dover sole from a bristol heel.
Quote from: Bonjoy on February 18, 2023, 11:17:22 pmI always struggle telling a dover sole from a bristol heel.You have no sole.
if only they were playing by the same rules as (nearly) everyone else.
Quote from: andy moles on February 25, 2023, 09:01:35 amif only they were playing by the same rules as (nearly) everyone else.For those of us who don't follow this, can you explain this?
Quote from: SA Chris on February 20, 2023, 08:50:37 amYou have no sole.Send them into Llanberis Resoles, he'll sort them out in no time.
You have no sole.
In a nutshell, climbing mixed routes when they are not sufficiently snowy/icy, and are more like dry-tooling.
Quote from: andy moles on February 25, 2023, 10:28:25 amIn a nutshell, climbing mixed routes when they are not sufficiently snowy/icy, and are more like dry-tooling.Hardly a new phenomenon, or one limited to ladies. For years my armchair view, kept to myself because obvs it's uninformed, has been that 90% of winter climbing that goes on is glorified dry tooling.
Oh dear. I'm fighting the urge.. but it's so difficult to read without correcting.
Insufficiently snowy/icy, and are more like dry-tooling....mixed routes should be properly frozen and have a wintery appearance and 'feel',
I think what you're looking at Will is another in a long line of examples of why instagram + hubris = the death of the soul of *climbing.* winter or summer
Why?1/ Because it's orders of magnitude more difficult to climb mixed routes in this condition.
People's views will differ, but I would describe the soul of climbing as something along the lines of: Climb for the sake of enjoying climbing, acknowledge that it's an arbitrary game with arbitrary rules designed to preserve the challenge of the game. Try to respect the arbitrary rules and accept the challenge. Question your motivations, if you find yourself avoiding the challenge. The rock, the climb, the history of the game and its characters, and the landscape in which the game is played are all important. You aren't.
Quote from: petejh on February 26, 2023, 11:19:40 amWhy?1/ Because it's orders of magnitude more difficult to climb mixed routes in this condition. So mixed climbing is big grades for bad connies...I'm messing with you, Pete, but only half-messing. When I used to enjoy baiting winter climbers on here about 10+ years ago it was because I was young and dumb(er) but also because I didn't really respect a discipline that caused harm to classic summer routes by climbing them in grim conditions (albeit less midgy) with inappropriate tools. Point Five Gully looks absolutely mint and I'd love to be dragged up it; Centurion not so much.