[Droyd]

I'm intrigued by what your friend found upsetting?

I think just the fact that it came from someone that she didn't know, and was the only thing that that person felt was worthy of comment after watching the video, given she'd put quite a lot of effort into it. Anyway, no interest in dragging Dingdong as that would count as public shaming and make me a hypocrite - and besides, I think we've all at some point failed to resist the temptation to write that sort of comment, so not a damning condemnation of him.

To anyone cool with this behaviour, here's a hypothetical: If you were at the same crag as a group of people that you didn't know and hadn't spoken to and one of them was having an attempt on a problem and, on the crux move, cut and hit the mother of all dabs, but otherwise did the problem and topped out to cheers and applause from their mates, would you go over, completely unprompted, and tell them that their ascent wasn't valid? Similarly, if you were in a pub and overheard someone at another table talking about how they'd done a route and it was their first 8a, and you knew that the consensus was that the route is actually a soft 7c+ since a hold fell off, would you feel the need, having not been asked, to tell them? I may be wrong but I genuinely believe that the percentage of people who would do either of those things is far smaller than that of people who would say the same things in a YouTube comment or forum post, despite the fact that the outcome is the same in terms of bringing the achievement into question. And so if you wouldn't do it in person, whether because of social norms, fear of repercussions, or not wanting to be a nob, why is doing it online okay?

Obviously this gets into all kinds of issues relating to the internet and anonymity, but I think it's an important point given a) there's always a real person on the other end of a social-media account and b) that person might be part of a group that is marginalised in the context of climbing and feel even more marginalised as a result of being told that they're 'doing it wrong'. It's patently obvious to UKB posters why a dabbed ascent doesn't count but isn't some sort of universal truth given the arbitrary nature of climbing, so being mocked for not knowing what is genuinely an unwritten rule (so unwritten that this thread is approaching 1000 replies and has posts mocking people for dabbing while climbing eighth-grade problems) might be water off a duck's back for some and a big fat 'fuck off, you're not welcome' to others. The nasty comments on the Girls on Grit posts might mean that fewer videos are posted (anecdotally, my girlfriend said that were she in a position to be recording herself bouldering she wouldn't bother submitting videos in light of that), which might in turn mean fewer women seeing those videos and bouldering outdoors at all.

I disagree with the idea that the information 'needs' to be delivered, and am interested in why; what does it matter to you if someone else dabs, starts off a bunch of stacked mats, or takes the higher, incorrect grade? With that last one even if they take the grade knowing full well that it's soft, how does that affect anyone but them? Yes it might give them false confidence and ultimately slow down their development, but if helping someone to avoid that and generally making sure people start in the right places and off the right number of mats are the best things you might achieve, and marginalising them and making them feel like they shouldn't be climbing is the worst, is it really worth it? To be clear, I agree with Liam - sharing a knowing look with your mate if you're at the crag or sending a screenshot and taking the piss in private are fine, and even some of the finer things in life - but doing so publicly is, like the 'Dead Fit Birds' thread mentioned a while back, really not a good look.

[webbo]

Coming from an age before the tinterweb. I have called people out to their face over their cheating, it’s not a difficult thing to do if you believe that they are ruining an activity that’s a massive part of your life.

[Droyd]

Coming from an age before the tinterweb. I have called people out to their face over their cheating, it’s not a difficult thing to do if you believe that they are ruining an activity that’s a massive part of your life.

I'm genuinely interested, what is it about this that you feel ruins climbing for you?

[Fiend]

They're only kidding themselves.

This assumes that they haven't logged it somewhere and posted on social media. If either of those happen then they're not only kidding themselves, obviously.

I'm intrigued by what your friend found upsetting? The nature of the way the information was delivered, or the information itself? I can sympathize with the former (I guess this is in line with what Liam is saying), but not really with the latter. Or at least I can see that the latter might be upsetting but that doesn't mean that the information shouldn't be delivered; I'd find it upsetting if Stu downgraded all my hard routes, but it makes sense to know what consensus is - if I don't care about grades then I won't care and if I do then I should know what others' opinions are surely?

Sounds like your (Droyd's) friend could benefit in being less wrapped up in grades (as indeed could most people). They got an experience and challenge they wanted, and surely that happened regardless of which number is attached to it??

Going back to the original kerfuffle:

Feels like this thread should go the way of DFB.

Or rename it “Frustrated Dads who like to criticise”. You could then just slag off anyone who didn’t fit your ‘rules’, be it beginners dabbing or women who are too short to reach the starting holds.

Looks more like one person - who can easily be ignored because they're a gigantalope - posted questioning a bouncy castle pad stack and immediately got smacked down by almost everyone, so it doesn't seem like much of a thread-wide vendetta against women who can't reach the holds (backed up by LH98's proportional analysis - ffs don't back down Liam just because you pointed out some common bloody sense!). Not sure it's overly focused on beginners either unless every beginner climbs in the 7s these days before realising the ground isn't in...

Either way I confirm Will's assertion that I wouldn't fuck with @mountainremedy , knowing her in person!!

[Fiend]

To anyone cool with this behaviour, here's a hypothetical: If you were at the same crag as a group of people that you didn't know and hadn't spoken to and one of them was having an attempt on a problem and, on the crux move, cut and hit the mother of all dabs, but otherwise did the problem and topped out to cheers and applause from their mates, would you go over, completely unprompted, and tell them that their ascent wasn't valid? Similarly, if you were in a pub and overheard someone at another table talking about how they'd done a route and it was their first 8a, and you knew that the consensus was that the route is actually a soft 7c+ since a hold fell off, would you feel the need, having not been asked, to tell them? I may be wrong but I genuinely believe that the percentage of people who would do either of those things is far smaller than that of people who would say the same things in a YouTube comment or forum post, despite the fact that the outcome is the same in terms of bringing the achievement into question. And so if you wouldn't do it in person, whether because of social norms, fear of repercussions, or not wanting to be a nob, why is doing it online okay?

The difference is that doing it online is doing it in response to someone choosing to publicly broadcast what they are doing - complete with dabs and inflated grades - to a potentially very wide audience. IF the mother of all dabs topped out to cheers and applause from several hundred people, the temptation to tell them their ascent was invalid would be pretty strong. IF the person in the pub was inflating their soft 7c+ to 8a into a loudspeaker to a pub with a thousand people in, then similarly one would be tempted to tell them.

Conversely, I think it would be fine to politely mention the real situation (the pads aren't in, a hold loss has changed the grade) to these people in person in the real situations you described. Why not?? Don't be rude about it, just be informative. It's a communal activity, not done in isolation, there are norms of what ascents are. A few times I've done a problem and been confused about the line and a partner has scoured the internet to find out "the flake isn't in" or "it starts on the crap slopers 2 inches below the obvious jug" and I can usually just accept it and say "well I will take Problem Whatever Natural Version at a lower grade (and higher stars)".

Basically, just climb the fucking rocks using the best info you have, don't use the pads / spotter / ground / trees for aid, don't get too wrapped up in sodding grades and numbers other bullshit trophies, and if you post something publicly where the entirity of Planet fucking Earth can see it then be prepared for corrections if they're needed as well as insta-likes / page views / subs / dribbling sycophantic praise and whatever else.

[Bonjoy]

Personally I think folk should post comments when they see vids titled as ascents of problems, but the climber has not followed a rule by which the prob is defined.
These days people massively rely on video beta, to the extent that they often don't read the description of the problem. So bad beta propagates and quickly becomes the default beta, especially if it also happens to be easier than doing the actual problem.

[Teaboy]

Similarly, if you were in a pub and overheard someone at another table talking about how they'd done a route and it was their first 8a, and you knew that the consensus was that the route is actually a soft 7c+ since a hold fell off, would you feel the need, having not been asked, to tell them?

They’d fucking know already, let’s not kid ourselves!

[Droyd]

Interesting, thoughtful replies - cheers all. I should note that I'm not trying to be a moralising bell or suggest anyone has done anything wrong - it's more the case that, because I've been chatting with people about this over the last couple of days and had my mind changed on things, I feel like it's a debate worth having.

I disagree with Fiend's ‘loudspeaker’ idea - that anything that one puts online is being publicly broadcast and thus can and should be critiqued if it contains incorrect information - as I think that many people don’t actually use social media in that way. I think that, in general, when people post on their social-media pages they’re doing so to show off to their mates rather than to tell the world what they’ve done, and pages like Girls on Grit are intended to share ideas and encourage broader participation within relatively small communities. Obviously there can be exceptions (I’m under no illusion as to the goal of someone starting a climbing-based YouTube channel with clickbait thumbnails, for example) in terms of people posting in order to obtain “dribbling sycophantic praise” from not just their friends but a wider population, but I think that for the most part sticking a post with your send footy up on Instagram is the digital equivalent of going down to the pub and quietly but perhaps not all that humbly informing your mates what you’ve been up to, rather than whipping out a loudspeaker and telling the whole pub. Obviously loads of people are self-publicising little toads who spray #climbingismypassion tags all over the place and engage in a bunch of similarly crass networking behaviours, but I’m inclined to try and see those people as a minority and ignore them.

Insofar as I can tell from the outside (and if I’m being a wanker about this by being a man telling women about the purpose of the group that they’ve made then do let me know) pages like Girls on Grit are the digital equivalents of women’s night at the bouldering wall - somewhere where women can engage with climbing away from men. But because it’s an Instagram page rather than a physically delimited space anyone can wander in and look and even comment, and because of that the post that kicked all of this off has a series of comments from a bloke accusing the climber of dishonesty and talking absolute bollocks (apparently stacking mats specifically affects whether you can claim a flash - link for anyone that is confused as to what I’m on about: https://www.instagram.com/p/CoUmKjYDkFV/). And whether or not the climber in the video can hold her own or beat the shit out of any one of us, that comment thread has probably been seen by women who followed the Girls on Grit page specifically because they wanted to be part of a community where men didn’t butt in and tell them that they were doing it wrong, and it’s happened anyway. They’ve done the digital equivalent of go to women’s night at the wall and a bloke has barged his way in, sprinted up to the group that got together specifically to avoid him, and sprayed them with unwanted beta and told them that they’re doing really well for girls. That’s the understanding I’ve got from chatting to a couple of women about this over the last couple of days, but it’d be great if any women reading this thread could add their thoughts so as to avoid the obvious pitfall of men telling women how they should feel.

I like shitting on people for being self-promoting losers as much as anyone (except maybe Fiend), and I get as wound up as anyone by people starting things wrong and taking the grade and all of that nonsense. But I think things like this show that there are real problems with calling people out publicly, and that how something is intended and how it is experienced can be very different. I agree in principle that telling people that they’re wrong should be perfectly reasonable, and that if it’s done in a polite and friendly way with an intention to be helpful and informative rather than put someone down then it would ideally be received as such - and if it isn’t then the recipient probably needs to work on things themselves. But saying that it’s a reasonable thing to do because you do it with tact and empathy legitimises the behaviour as a whole and means that less considerate people do it but without the tact and empathy, and if the result of that is that people feel that climbing isn’t for them then I think we need to bin the whole thing off.

[Dingdong]

I'm intrigued by what your friend found upsetting?

I think just the fact that it came from someone that she didn't know, and was the only thing that that person felt was worthy of comment after watching the video, given she'd put quite a lot of effort into it. Anyway, no interest in dragging Dingdong as that would count as public shaming and make me a hypocrite - and besides, I think we've all at some point failed to resist the temptation to write that sort of comment, so not a damning condemnation of him.

To anyone cool with this behaviour, here's a hypothetical: If you were at the same crag as a group of people that you didn't know and hadn't spoken to and one of them was having an attempt on a problem and, on the crux move, cut and hit the mother of all dabs, but otherwise did the problem and topped out to cheers and applause from their mates, would you go over, completely unprompted, and tell them that their ascent wasn't valid? Similarly, if you were in a pub and overheard someone at another table talking about how they'd done a route and it was their first 8a, and you knew that the consensus was that the route is actually a soft 7c+ since a hold fell off, would you feel the need, having not been asked, to tell them? I may be wrong but I genuinely believe that the percentage of people who would do either of those things is far smaller than that of people who would say the same things in a YouTube comment or forum post, despite the fact that the outcome is the same in terms of bringing the achievement into question. And so if you wouldn't do it in person, whether because of social norms, fear of repercussions, or not wanting to be a nob, why is doing it online okay?

Obviously this gets into all kinds of issues relating to the internet and anonymity, but I think it's an important point given a) there's always a real person on the other end of a social-media account and b) that person might be part of a group that is marginalised in the context of climbing and feel even more marginalised as a result of being told that they're 'doing it wrong'. It's patently obvious to UKB posters why a dabbed ascent doesn't count but isn't some sort of universal truth given the arbitrary nature of climbing, so being mocked for not knowing what is genuinely an unwritten rule (so unwritten that this thread is approaching 1000 replies and has posts mocking people for dabbing while climbing eighth-grade problems) might be water off a duck's back for some and a big fat 'fuck off, you're not welcome' to others. The nasty comments on the Girls on Grit posts might mean that fewer videos are posted (anecdotally, my girlfriend said that were she in a position to be recording herself bouldering she wouldn't bother submitting videos in light of that), which might in turn mean fewer women seeing those videos and bouldering outdoors at all.

I disagree with the idea that the information 'needs' to be delivered, and am interested in why; what does it matter to you if someone else dabs, starts off a bunch of stacked mats, or takes the higher, incorrect grade? With that last one even if they take the grade knowing full well that it's soft, how does that affect anyone but them? Yes it might give them false confidence and ultimately slow down their development, but if helping someone to avoid that and generally making sure people start in the right places and off the right number of mats are the best things you might achieve, and marginalising them and making them feel like they shouldn't be climbing is the worst, is it really worth it? To be clear, I agree with Liam - sharing a knowing look with your mate if you're at the crag or sending a screenshot and taking the piss in private are fine, and even some of the finer things in life - but doing so publicly is, like the 'Dead Fit Birds' thread mentioned a while back, really not a good look.

Personally I don’t see it much different to all the UKC logs you’ve posted where you call loads of stuff soft, usually because you’re taller and can reach holds smaller climbers can’t reach. Surely we should be thinking about all the short peoples feelings when they feel they’ve achieved something?

If you post publicly for people to see and you title your video “training to climb 7A” or “just sent my 7A project” but you’ve actually climbed a 6C then you can’t be mad if someone publicly replies to your public video and let’s you know that what you’ve climbed isn’t actually 7A. And again, the way I wrote it wasn’t even rude or mean so not much dragging to be done tbh.

[Droyd]

I'm intrigued by what your friend found upsetting?

I think just the fact that it came from someone that she didn't know, and was the only thing that that person felt was worthy of comment after watching the video, given she'd put quite a lot of effort into it. Anyway, no interest in dragging Dingdong as that would count as public shaming and make me a hypocrite - and besides, I think we've all at some point failed to resist the temptation to write that sort of comment, so not a damning condemnation of him.

To anyone cool with this behaviour, here's a hypothetical: If you were at the same crag as a group of people that you didn't know and hadn't spoken to and one of them was having an attempt on a problem and, on the crux move, cut and hit the mother of all dabs, but otherwise did the problem and topped out to cheers and applause from their mates, would you go over, completely unprompted, and tell them that their ascent wasn't valid? Similarly, if you were in a pub and overheard someone at another table talking about how they'd done a route and it was their first 8a, and you knew that the consensus was that the route is actually a soft 7c+ since a hold fell off, would you feel the need, having not been asked, to tell them? I may be wrong but I genuinely believe that the percentage of people who would do either of those things is far smaller than that of people who would say the same things in a YouTube comment or forum post, despite the fact that the outcome is the same in terms of bringing the achievement into question. And so if you wouldn't do it in person, whether because of social norms, fear of repercussions, or not wanting to be a nob, why is doing it online okay?

Obviously this gets into all kinds of issues relating to the internet and anonymity, but I think it's an important point given a) there's always a real person on the other end of a social-media account and b) that person might be part of a group that is marginalised in the context of climbing and feel even more marginalised as a result of being told that they're 'doing it wrong'. It's patently obvious to UKB posters why a dabbed ascent doesn't count but isn't some sort of universal truth given the arbitrary nature of climbing, so being mocked for not knowing what is genuinely an unwritten rule (so unwritten that this thread is approaching 1000 replies and has posts mocking people for dabbing while climbing eighth-grade problems) might be water off a duck's back for some and a big fat 'fuck off, you're not welcome' to others. The nasty comments on the Girls on Grit posts might mean that fewer videos are posted (anecdotally, my girlfriend said that were she in a position to be recording herself bouldering she wouldn't bother submitting videos in light of that), which might in turn mean fewer women seeing those videos and bouldering outdoors at all.

I disagree with the idea that the information 'needs' to be delivered, and am interested in why; what does it matter to you if someone else dabs, starts off a bunch of stacked mats, or takes the higher, incorrect grade? With that last one even if they take the grade knowing full well that it's soft, how does that affect anyone but them? Yes it might give them false confidence and ultimately slow down their development, but if helping someone to avoid that and generally making sure people start in the right places and off the right number of mats are the best things you might achieve, and marginalising them and making them feel like they shouldn't be climbing is the worst, is it really worth it? To be clear, I agree with Liam - sharing a knowing look with your mate if you're at the crag or sending a screenshot and taking the piss in private are fine, and even some of the finer things in life - but doing so publicly is, like the 'Dead Fit Birds' thread mentioned a while back, really not a good look.

Personally I don’t see it much different to all the UKC logs you’ve posted where you call loads of stuff soft, usually because you’re taller and can reach holds smaller climbers can’t reach. Surely we should be thinking about all the short peoples feelings when they feel they’ve achieved something?

If you post publicly for people to see and you title your video “training to climb 7A” or “just sent my 7A project” but you’ve actually climbed a 6C then you can’t be mad if someone publicly replies to your public video and let’s you know that what you’ve climbed isn’t actually 7A. And again, the way I wrote it wasn’t even rude or mean so not much dragging to be done tbh.

I generally try and give an honest opinion about problems and I think do better than most at acknowledging any natural advantages that I have (which basically comes down to being 5’10” but having an armspan of around 6’2”), but on reflection I'm sure if you look through the thousands of entries in my logbook you’ll find less edifying logs or instances of in-jokes that I’m sure come off as me being a prick. Apologies if anything has ever felt mean-spirited.

However, I’m not sure that the comparison is reasonable. For me the primary purpose of the UKC logbooks is to build a consensus on the difficulty of things in a more democratic way than the guidebook committees of old, as everyone has an equal opportunity to present their view. I approach YouTube/Instagram videos as inspiration for my own climbing, watching them to find things that I might want to do in the future and generally gain motivation, so grades in titles being accurate and people dabbing really doesn’t matter to me, and if someone is trying to big themselves up with likes and sycophantic comments that they might not technically ‘deserve’ then they’re welcome to those, given they don’t have any real value.

Maybe this is just a difference in perspective and I’m looking at things weirdly, but as far as I’m concerned if you’re scrolling logbook entries you’ve made an active decision to find out about other peoples’ experiences on problems, whereas the act of uploading a video documenting your experience is not a tacit invitation for anyone to comment on that experience.

[NaoB]

Interesting topic. First off, my female opinion may be slightly atypical because I'm quite tall (5'9") so I don't often experience 'shorty' issues. Therefore, I am not even going to touch on the pad stacking debate beyond acknowledging bonjoy's point that surely using the fewest necessary to reach specified start holds makes sense.

I find it really useful watching beta videos, like most of us do, because it saves a load of time and energy (and fuel!). Generally speaking, I find it extra useful watching other women's beta. We had a running joke for a while that we'd always be asking "what would Jen do?" every time we bouldered on Yorkshire grit (we miss you Jen!!). BUT.... Bad beta videos absolutely do cause others to follow suit, and we all have a responsibility to try and ensure that what we post on social media is not adding to this effect. I tend to overthink everything and often end up not posting vids of myself just in case someone might make a negative comment - this is because I have really thin skin when it comes to criticism, but also because I have assessed it myself and know in my heart of hearts that there was something questionable in there! This is mostly due to insecurity about how I look, but might be worry about taking a grade or using an unsanctioned sequence. I guess what I'm saying is that fear of the comments of others does inhibit me from sharing more content. Is that a bad thing? I honestly don't know! But it is a reality - if you publicly post content, you do have to be prepared for public critique. Occasionally, the calling out is genuinely warranted. Of course, it would be great if this could be delivered kindly, tactfully and positively. Fat chance though!

Good effort to all the 'girls on grit' for having the courage to post.

[Jono.r23]

Hey. First post but lurking for a while. As a short person its often a struggle on gritstone climbs put up & graded by tall people. I have no shame in stacking pads to reach low start holds. Presumably tall people happily reach past cruxes and take ticks too. I absolutely love Girls On Grit, not just for empowering & enabling women but as a resource for shorties & i sincerely hope the thoughtless comments of the odd tall man doesn’t deter more contributions. It is literally a lifetime ticklist for little people!
I saw the original comment re Truffle Pig on the youtube vid mentioned and tbh it felt ouchy.. imo it might have been better just to let them see for themselves the consensus grading when logging it compared to the guide. That said, i have literally walked up to a group cheering each other on while climbing Jerrys Finish using the big jug and ruined their day. I possibly wouldn’t have done this had i not been told earlier in the day that it was soft by another random climber. Much of this issue is I think the outdated rockfax descriptions on ukc often warrant clarification. With clearer info people could make better judgements about their achievements before contributing to the proliferation of bad beta. The way we communicate info though, always worth checking yourself.

[abarro81]

Droyd - you know you can make insta profile private so you control who follows right? That's the equivalent of going to the pub and talking to your mates. Ditto posting on Facebook. Your mates should still tell you if you cheated though!

I broadly agree with Naomi and Jon.

[battery]

I'm female. I have started a response to this thread three or four times and then decided against it. The problem is that this debate isn't a bit of a folly or a thought experiment, this is every day life and battles for me, the emotional investment in writing responses to stuff like this can be large.

Women tend to be much more cautious and self critical than men, we tend to avoid situations that can put us in a situation where we may be critiqued. Naomi I relate to everything you have said. We tend to be less confident and value ourselves less. There is science around this. Putting something out there in a space that is intended to support an encourage women and having it smacked down is only going to reinforce all those thoughts and make women less likely to post. Less visibility means less women are likely to get into the sport - we all look for people like us, it's human nature (again there are science studies around this, babies will go to the person that looks most like them).

My experience is that women's participation is increasing but I don't think I have ever been to a crag and been in the majority.

I don't have the resilience or energy to get into a huge conversation about all of this. The main thing I came here to say is if you're interested in this, go have a read of Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez - equality is not about numbers, it's about what assumptions are being made based on the use of male as the norm and women are simply small men.

[petejh]

I disagree with Fiend's ‘loudspeaker’ idea - that anything that one puts online is being publicly broadcast and thus can and should be critiqued if it contains incorrect information - as I think that many people don’t actually use social media in that way. I think that, in general, when people post on their social-media pages they’re doing so to show off to their mates rather than to tell the world what they’ve done, …

This appears to be another of those ‘feelings versus facts’ thingies.

Fiend is factually correct. As Alex points out, if you set your social media privacy settings to ‘the whole universe can see what I post’  then you are in fact broadcasting to the whole universe. Which is what social media company x wants you to do because your posts are the product. Whatever you might feel about what are your or other peoples’ intentions for using social media.

That isn’t a criticism.

I think that for the most part sticking a post with your send footy up on Instagram is the digital equivalent of going down to the pub and quietly but perhaps not all that humbly informing your mates what you’ve been up to, rather than whipping out a loudspeaker and telling the whole pub.

I like the pub analogy. I’d liken insta/FB etc. more to a massive Wetherspoons where you’re sat with your mates telling them what you’ve been up to while the sky-sports projector projects everything you’re saying up onto the big screen next to the toilets and on all the smaller tv screens around the place.

Anyone in the pub can glance at the screens if they want and pass comment on what they see - it is in fact part of the reason they go to that particular pub, to be entertained by the content of other peoples’ lives.

In the background a narrator quietly relays other people’s comments about your non-private conversation over the sound system at a volume just loud enough for rude comments to annoy you as you try to concentrate on chatting to your mates.

Not a pub I frequent often. I prefer the dog and duck of UKB.

[yetix]

Thank you Naomi and Battery for your comments 😊

[Bradders]

I'm female. I have started a response to this thread three or four times and then decided against it. The problem is that this debate isn't a bit of a folly or a thought experiment, this is every day life and battles for me, the emotional investment in writing responses to stuff like this can be large.

Women tend to be much more cautious and self critical than men, we tend to avoid situations that can put us in a situation where we may be critiqued. Naomi I relate to everything you have said. We tend to be less confident and value ourselves less. There is science around this. Putting something out there in a space that is intended to support an encourage women and having it smacked down is only going to reinforce all those thoughts and make women less likely to post. Less visibility means less women are likely to get into the sport - we all look for people like us, it's human nature (again there are science studies around this, babies will go to the person that looks most like them).

My experience is that women's participation is increasing but I don't think I have ever been to a crag and been in the majority.

I don't have the resilience or energy to get into a huge conversation about all of this. The main thing I came here to say is if you're interested in this, go have a read of Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez - equality is not about numbers, it's about what assumptions are being made based on the use of male as the norm and women are simply small men.

Thanks for posting Battery. The sex of the person doing the climb wasn't something I considered at all when posting originally, and clearly I could have said it better.

Interesting note on caution; I've read recent studies which found that attitude to risk is less to do with gender, and more to do with environment. I.e. in a patriarchal society like ours it is true that women are more cautious and risk averse, whereas in matriarchal societies the opposite occurs. I think this underscores how important groups like Girls on Grit are, so I'm very sorry if I've undermined that at all.

Looks more like one person - who can easily be ignored because they're a gigantalope - posted questioning a bouncy castle pad stack and immediately got smacked down by almost everyone

We still haven't gotten to the bottom of whether she started in the right place, which was my only question albeit I admit to taking the piss with my phrasing which maybe isn't the best way of doing it. Then again, humour is often a good way of softening these things so I don't know 

To anyone cool with this behaviour, here's a hypothetical: If you were at the same crag as a group of people that you didn't know and hadn't spoken to and one of them was having an attempt on a problem and, on the crux move, cut and hit the mother of all dabs, but otherwise did the problem and topped out to cheers and applause from their mates, would you go over, completely unprompted, and tell them that their ascent wasn't valid?

Yes, and indeed have done exactly that or very similar (may have been some chat beforehand - I don't mean I'd sprint over from the other side of the crag to yell at them). I'd like to think I've always done it in a friendly and polite way.

My problem with not calling it out is the casual erosion of standards that leads to, which I think is a massive cultural issue in the UK generally not just in climbing. As others have said, if you share things on social media with names, grades, number of goes and green ticks all round then you're signing up to a system and need to be prepared for people to criticise if you've done it wrong.

How we balance that with encouraging participation etc. is a difficult question. The idea of not raising these things with women, simply because of their sex, strikes me as incredibly patronising though.

doing so publicly is, like the 'Dead Fit Birds' thread mentioned a while back, really not a good look.

I don't get the equivalence here at all! The DFB thread was sexist and misogynistic, making out that women's only purpose in climbing is as sexual objects, whereas this thread is a discussion of climbing standards and ethics. Yes there's clearly an overlay in terms of women and participation but otherwise how are they possibly alike?

[mrjonathanr]

We still haven't gotten to the bottom of whether she started in the right place, which was my only question albeit I admit to taking the piss with my phrasing which maybe isn't the best way of doing it. Then again, humour is often a good way of softening these things so I don't know 

As an aside, this is very much how lads relate. I learned to improve my footwork as a youth because of relentless mickey taking by my mates when it was clumsy. Girls don’t tend to relate like that. The point being, how it comes across to you and me etc may not be how it is experienced by someone else.

[Droyd]

I’ve already written way too much on this thread, so to give my keyboard a break and hopefully leave some space for better-informed people to comment I’ll try and keep it brief (for me):

In my opinion the arguments for calling people out are ultimately less important than the arguments against, because I don’t think that protecting defined starting positions and grades is worth doing if it has a risk of damaging inclusivity and participation. Clearly the answer isn’t to stop criticising women altogether, but is it that unthinkable to focus on the rare occasions when it does have a negative impact rather than the majority where it doesn’t, and on that basis say that we shouldn’t do it at all?

The reason I brought up ‘Dead Fit Birds’ isn’t because I’m accusing anyone of misogyny or going for some false-equivalence bullshit, but because if you look at that thread now it seems pretty grim despite presumably being acceptable at the time, and I guess it died out because people recognised that it was ultimately harmful. I feel that the same will be said of this thread down the line, with the benefit of hindsight. The parallel I want to draw is that I don’t think many people set out to do things with bad intentions but that, as has been argued here and elsewhere, how things are received is more important than how they are intended.

[yetix]

If people are pro calling out the lady from girls on grit for pad stacking I hope they're planning to call out Tim for pad stacking on cypher....

[Andy W]

This has been a very interesting thread but I think its time to split the topic...dabbing and pad stacking are not the same thing and deserve separate threads. 

[Bradders]

If people are pro calling out the lady from girls on grit for pad stacking I hope they're planning to call out Tim for pad stacking on cypher....

Oh come on, he's on tip toes reaching up to the defined starting position!

[Johnny Brown]

Moon started off stacked pads on the first ascent so presumably legit anyway.

[countyyoungin]

Hadn’t even thought about that, seemingly lots of people have done so? I was only just grabbing the start LH seam and smaller people than me have done it. Happy to be corrected.

[yetix]

I was joking Tim! It was more about calling women out for things that imo seemed excessive!
She's also stretched out like Tim is was more my point.

Sorry if that wasn't clear