[dave]

I made this point the last time Dave made his, and I believe they are both as pertinent today as they were then...

V8 does not cover a bigger range than other grades. However it does coincide remarkably with the limit of most keen boulderers.... getting to it is fairly achievable, getting beyond it requires serious application, or in my case, huge talent. Hands up those who have only climbed a few V9/7cs or above? See, point proven.

If we look at the past we can see the same phenomena has occurred in other grading systems. It is no coincidence that the V8+/ hard 7b+ grade correlates exactly with the Uk tech 6c/7a boundary. Again 6c was claimed to be a 'bigger' grade due to peeps failed attempts to climb a 'real' 7a...  the same goes for panton's E6 in the eighties schtick.

a wigga would have to be bubbling crack to think footwork wasn't on the money here. amen to that word.

[Pantontino]

Not so fast tough guys...

JB might care to dismiss my point about the E6 grade range, but I presume he is speaking from the position of being a seasoned E7 onsighter looking down on the lowly achievements of all those pathetic E6 leaders out there (I mean, what a bunch of punters bumping theri poor little heads on the superstar ceiling of E7!). Go on chuck, give us a list of all the E7s you've onsighted this summer.

And as for the last paragraph of JB's rant (unfortunately this disqualifies the first bit which I admit was pretty amusing and relevant to the argument). What a load of hippy, tree hugging bollocks, which you clearly don't believe judging by the spectacular egomania demonstrated during the first paragraph (even if your tongue was partially pressed into your cheek). Almost as bad as that rage inducing hackneyed grade debate interjection; "I don't know about you but I reckon there are only 2 types of grades: ones you can do, and (wait for it) ones you can't!!!!!!!!!!HA_FUCKINGHAHAHA - take me to the hospital now, my sides have split.

Jim, the Americans don't have a V8+ grade for the same reasons that we don't have an E6+ grade. Tradition (plus a large dollop of ego) innit.


PS I know grading debates are ultimately as tedious as belaying somebody on a North Stack Wall epic, but admit it, your all loving this...or shall I get my coat?

PPS "guidebook writer's in fact do not even need to be able to climb, all they are doing is writing numbers next to photo's" - brilliant that Dense, just brilliant - yeah, making (decent) guidebooks is a piece of piss, any halfwit can do it. Except, it's funny how many utterly soulless and heart numbingly dull guidebooks get made though, isn't it? No?

[Bubba]

I know grading debates are ultimately as tedious as belaying somebody on a North Stack Wall epic, but admit it, your all loving this...or shall I get my coat?

It's a good thread so far and by the number of page views people are liking it so plz carry on

[Johnny Brown]

Clearly bubbling crack makes folk angry! That or Dense's line cut a bit deep...

I've never gone for the 'them's you can, them's you can't' thing, all a bit yorkshire for me. The only thing that I worry about is 'is it good?' Do I want to do it -  whether i've done it before or not. There are hard problems I have no wish to do again, whilst there are easy ones I can't help doing over and over. If I haven't done it - does it look good in line or moves? ...but anyone reading this who doesn't do the same is in the wrong sport, so I'll stop.

The E6 thing. As I remember, before bouldering really took off most keen tradsters weren't that hot on hard moves. Back when I started out the club hero types were all leading E5 whether it was stamina or bold. Getting into E6 and above suddenly something happened -either proper hard moves kicked in or it became dangerously bold. Now we all boulder hard moves all the time or cheat and toprope to death, so suddenly E7 is for everyman. If E6 was a huge grade there'd be loads that folk say need upgrading - I can't think of any. Admittedly though your perspective may be swayed by Bransby and Robbins churning out these E5/7s...

The chi line is a crook quote - I'm as serious as he is.

[saltbeef]

so I'm assuming this new guide is about the lakes? who cares no ones gonna go climbing there.
ps handbag for panton!

[Pantontino]

JB I'm not angry, just amused at how much passion a trivial grade argument can generate. I don't care what system people use, I've said that many times before.

You are still wrong about the E6 thing though. The only reason no-one says anything in your social circle is because they've gotten used to the vastness of the E6 grade and/or because they daren't rock the macho boat.

[Pantontino]

Yeah saltbeef, there isn't any good bouldering in the Lakes. The Bowderstone, Carrock Fell, St Bees - all rubbish. Not worth leaving Raven Tor or Rubicon for that sort of sub standard shite.

[webbo]

I've never gone for the 'them's you can, them's you can't' thing, all a bit yorkshire for me. The only thing that I worry about is 'is it good?' Do I want to do it -  whether i've done it before or not. There are hard problems I have no wish to do again, whilst there are easy ones I can't help doing over and over. If I haven't done it - does it look good in line or moves? ...but anyone reading this who doesn't do the same is in the wrong sport, so I'll stop.

so i've been persuing the wrong sport for the 30+ years.i might enjoy doing a class easy problem but even at my age i want to climb the hardest things that i'm physically able to do.
your statement comes across like the old chesnut of is climbing art.what a load of bollocks,  its about how hard you can pull down.  :wink:

[dave]

now i've not really got much practical experience of the whole E6 thing, having as yet done no E6s and only a couple of routes at the "corresponding" french grades, but it seemes to me that this is a totally different argument to the V8+ thing. for a start you're not comparing like with like. the V8+ thing is comparing boulder problems to boulder problems, the E6 thing is comparing routes on trad gear and routes on bolts - for much of the time this makes it a totally different ballgame. of course there is a grey area, but in the whole you get the drift, and mainly seem to be dealing with the rather dodgy late 80s tactic of trying to give sport routes trad grades, something that in this day and age is a totally bizarre concept in most cases.

however i would have thought the main cases for this percived wide E6 would be as with 7b+ the oversimplified view of the grade equivalences for other grades, and that coinciding with the kinda max ballpark peak operating level (give or take) of a bulk of climbers.

For example I gather that like Si's top new problems are in the kinda v8+v9 area like from the mid/late 90s like sonic boom etc, and i would guess a lot of si's peers at that time too. I don't know owt abotu si's trad credentials but for someone presumably doing at lof of it in the early 90s it's not too much of a leap of faith to estimate it was at the E6/7b+/7c/7c+ lever ballpark give or take. I recon its the same thing as with people thinking englich tech 6c is a wide grade, it became the area that a load of people were at. if'm wrong then lets hear, but if the "pack" of climber were  a lot stronger, would we not me sat here debating the very wide V11 and F8a grades?

[dave]

Yeah saltbeef, there isn't any good bouldering in the Lakes. The Bowderstone, Carrock Fell, St Bees - all rubbish. Not worth leaving Raven Tor or Rubicon for that sort of sub standard shite.

he didn't say it was shite, he just said that no-one would go there. Theres a subtle distinction : :roll: wink:

[Bonjoy]

V8 does not cover a bigger range than other grades. However it does coincide remarkably with the limit of most keen boulderers.... getting to it is fairly achievable, getting beyond it requires serious application, or in my case, huge talent. Hands up those who have only climbed a few V9/7cs or above? See, point proven.

If we look at the past we can see the same phenomena has occurred in other grading systems. It is no coincidence that the V8+/ hard 7b+ grade correlates exactly with the Uk tech 6c/7a boundary. Again 6c was claimed to be a 'bigger' grade due to peeps failed attempts to climb a 'real' 7a... the same goes for panton's E6 in the eighties schtick.

 I have pondered the same effect with the sport climbing bottleneck grades. Similar occurs around the 8a-8b range in UK sport climbing, although the excess of 8a+s compared to 8as or 8bs would suggest there is either some grade compression or the partially manufactured nature of many harder sport routes (selective cleaning, gluing, choice of line and belay position),  reflects the abilities of the manufacturer.

[cofe]

5 pages......................................................................................

come on lads 2 more. we might even make it to 8+ pages...

[Bonjoy]

Don't you mean 7b+ pages cofe?
 
 The problem with using V8+ to differentiate at a percieved overgrown grade, ist that the new grade grows to roughly match the 'width' of the grades around it, therefore distorting the V system and making it even less internationally applicable. Effectively V8 gets pushed down a bit and V9 gets pushed up a bit, both maintaining there 'width' and having a knock on effect either side. Get me?

[andy_e]

i'll just keep posting random interjections vaguely to do with the point but not quite, to help cofe in his quest.

[Greg C]

Please don't! I just get confused.

[andy_e]

i think if theres not going to be a V8+ then we should get rid of V0+ and V0- too.

there, is that good enough for ya greg?

[a dense loner]

The only reason no-one says anything in your social circle is because they've gotten used to the vastness of the E6 grade and/or because they daren't rock the macho boat.

panto i do believe you've lost your marbles. 2 points.
1: i do believe mr brown is in my social circle, not t'other way around
2: i never discuss route grades
3: how can johnny be macho looking like a girl
fifty percent free

my argument about guidebook writers' not needing to climb was took the wrong way, i think. i was in no way trying to undermine the efforts of any guidebook writer. what, in fact, i was saying was, let's take you for the sake of my previous statement. simon climbs V9- (a wild stab in the dark) yet in the north wales guidebook he has put probs in at V12. how is this possible, simon doesn't climb V12 outdoors. it is possible by other climbers operating at or near to this level to confirm it. i was in no way dissin any guidebook or saying it was an easy task

while we're on the subject greg n mr. burns are too tall to have an opinion  :wink:

[Mr.Burns]

Tall...me?

[Pantontino]

simon doesn't climb V12 outdoors:

That'll be why Throbbins refers to the shop as V Diff Outdoor - he's witnessed me shaking like a shiting dog, and nearly falling off Grond (which admittedly is about E10).

[Rico]

Tall...me?

Like a ginger Peter Crouch, but with more footballing talent.  :wink:

[SA Chris]

And look what he did for Saints.

[Rico]

He looks ungainly but he's got an awesome first touch.

Just ask that minger in the Cocked Hat club.  

[Sypeland]

Where in the B grading system did 7b+ fall? I think somwhere around B9+, and that grade never existed so why have V8+?

Thats my contribution, back to pricing up some rather nice new beanies from the US by screamer.

[a dense loner]

he's witnessed me shaking like a shiting dog

i'm the same every time i do crescent arete.

noticed there was a page in this months climber that throbbins wasn't on

[Mr.Burns]

Just ask that minger in the Cocked Hat club.

It was dark and I was young, anyway you were dealing out your own special lady treatment if I remember  :shock:

Which is the most commonly used system in the UK is it V or Font?