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Sit starts vs shit starts. (Read 7030 times)

Fiend

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#25 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 10:19:48 am
Nai I presume you'll be busting out some laps on COTEC soon. Might want to take a spade though.

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#26 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 10:21:36 am
I guess generally the most important thing is "which are the starting holds"...Perhaps guides should mark these on problems where its worth it.

They're generally marked with little white painted-on dots in the Frankenjura. Not suggesting this would be an acceptable practice anywhere other than in the home of the redpoint.

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#27 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 10:27:40 am
I guess generally the most important thing is "which are the starting holds"...Perhaps guides should mark these on problems where its worth it.

This ^^

There are many many stand up problems where you can reach a slightly higher hold (especially if you are >= normal sized :D ) that makes the problem piss/easy/not the same. 

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#28 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 10:29:41 am
Nexus on Dinas Mot.

Isn't that escapable too? I've done either that or Plexus, and seem to remember easier escapes from most pitches, or is my memory failing. Great trad lines pass through improbable territory at a lower grade than expected through fortune of cunning line, or unexpected natural features.

Bonjoy

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#29 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 12:13:56 pm
It’s entirely context specific.
Some sit start are shit problems, as are many stand starts. A shit prob, is shit prob, is a shit prob. An eliminate sit start can be amazing if it is well defined, logical and has amazing moves. And a clean independent visually attractive stand start can be shit because the moves are ugly. I think there’s a divergence of opinion between people who are motived more by the aesthetics of moves versus those motivated more by the aesthetics of line, the two aesthetics often don’t coincide on a given line. How or if a sitter is recorded depends on the context. Is it an online crag specific topo, is it an online climb database, is it a definitive guide, is it a selective guide? I’d say a shit climb of any type becomes less valid to record as you progress along that spectrum.
However I personally think that it’s a fairly bad idea to exclude logical well defined independent climbs, including sit starts, on the basis that you think the sequence is shit. Maybe you just have a shit sequence, or it doesn’t fit your shape, or you’re conflating frustration with lack of objective quality.
My bugbear is illogical or ill-defined problems, which often does include sit starts. Whether that’s because the person recording the problem is trying to make the climb seem more independent than it is, or just being lazy/careless. I’d rather descriptions are wordier and include information on what criteria the given grade is based on. This doesn’t mean ascentionist have stick to these, it just informs. In many cases climbs (especially roofs) are improved by pull on positions lower than the highest possible sit start. Specified starts also remove the possibility of grade chasers cheating by pulling on off stacked pads.

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#30 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 12:19:20 pm
Specified starts also remove the possibility of grade chasers cheating by pulling on off stacked pads.

Or lankers skipping the hard first moves, and then downgrading.

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#31 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 02:08:56 pm
I think Fiend should come up with some sort of equation to calculate the shitness of a problem.

(maybe a project for when you have to self isolate? :) )

nai

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#32 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 04:03:02 pm
Nai I presume you'll be busting out some laps on COTEC soon. Might want to take a spade though.

Haven't got around to that yet but didn't miss out on Stirrup Spring Sitter at Bank Quarry today.  Proves the logic that if there are holds someone will climb them.

And what Bonjoy says. Eye-of-the-beholder stuff.
A guy at Kyloe last week was saying how his mate thought Hitchikers was the worst problem he'd ever done reasoning that it starts off a block, is only a couple of hard moves into an easy finish and doesn't even top out.
All valid points, each one enough to demerit a problem.
So it's either that or an utterly classic test of harsh crimping, compression, footwork and body tension with a bit of sublety to the crux move  :devangel:
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 04:30:54 pm by nai »

Fiend

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#33 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 04:26:29 pm
Bonjoy I was going to speculate that you might be biased as a notorious hoarder/collector/recorder/developer/explorator of anything and everything and I suspect the idea of, for example, you excavating and climbing V8 hanging start to some forgotten E4 6b at Birchens Far East and then NOT immediately recording it with some snappy name like Floating Spleen Cereal, before dumping it in a post of 74 new problems in seemingly climbed out areas to blindside UKB with once Ned has mopped up a couple of V12s might be truly nightmarish...

But the again you do make a lot of sense and indeed the logic of the line and the logic of the climbing don't always correlate as well as they should.

OTOH the SS to that slabby V0 arete at Curbar should never have been recorded let alone repeated. Re-defining LOG for the nu skool.

nai

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#34 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 04:42:47 pm

OTOH the SS to that slabby V0 arete at Curbar should never have been recorded let alone repeated. Re-defining LOG for the nu skool.

But if it's not recorded someone will be along to claim it again. As it appears happened with COTEC, which is where we began?

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#35 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 05:00:47 pm
Bonjoy I was going to speculate that you might be biased as a notorious hoarder/collector/recorder/developer/explorator of anything and everything and I suspect the idea of, for example, you excavating and climbing V8 hanging start to some forgotten E4 6b at Birchens Far East and then NOT immediately recording it with some snappy name like Floating Spleen Cereal, before dumping it in a post of 74 new problems in seemingly climbed out areas to blindside UKB with once Ned has mopped up a couple of V12s might be truly nightmarish...

But the again you do make a lot of sense and indeed the logic of the line and the logic of the climbing don't always correlate as well as they should.

OTOH the SS to that slabby V0 arete at Curbar should never have been recorded let alone repeated. Re-defining LOG for the nu skool.
Except that it took me nearly four years to post an update thread on ukb detailing my last batch... There's actually a fair hit that I climb and don't bother to record.
Which Curbar V0 are we talking about?

Fiend

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#36 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 05:07:39 pm
I know. I'd just skimmed your post before and wrote the reply in my mind. As I say it's a lot of sense.

It's the Font 4 below and right, facing cragwards, of Gorilla Warfare.

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#37 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 11, 2020, 08:28:28 pm
 I agree, that is log . ;D

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#38 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 12, 2020, 09:03:12 am
 New rule!

If you're - justifiably - moaning about some horrendous log sitter, in the spirit of fairness and positivity you also have to celebrate a different sitter that is entirely excellent and purposeful.

I'll start, by cheating a bit since this is entirely guesswork. Since I've mentioned a blunt arete here's another one: By Hook Or By Crook SS at the Hunter Stones. I could only do the stand-up, which is interesting enough but does feel a bit of an awkward pull-on, while the sitter has much more obvious starting holds. I don't know if it climbs well, but out of the two versions it seems to have more purpose.

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#39 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 12, 2020, 09:58:31 am
New rule!

If you're - justifiably - moaning about some horrendous log sitter, in the spirit of fairness and positivity you also have to celebrate a different sitter that is entirely excellent and purposeful.

I'll start, by cheating a bit since this is entirely guesswork. Since I've mentioned a blunt arete here's another one: By Hook Or By Crook SS at the Hunter Stones. I could only do the stand-up, which is interesting enough but does feel a bit of an awkward pull-on, while the sitter has much more obvious starting holds. I don't know if it climbs well, but out of the two versions it seems to have more purpose.

What dimension is this that the stand to that could be considered inferior to the sit? I have also not done the sit, but it falls into the category of "crux is getting your cheeks off the deck" for me. And is thus shit. The stand is nothing special but it's OK. No star or 1 star problem.

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#40 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 12, 2020, 11:07:35 am
Even worse, isnt that the kind of upward sloping shit start requiring an ab crunch just to reach the holds? Like starting on an situp bench.

The lie down start may be the true enlightened start. Comfortable, not too bunched, straight in to 70 degrees. Obvs only when possible.

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#41 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 12, 2020, 05:48:18 pm
A dimension in which you could actually do the SS? (Sorry, petty jibe, I must have been contaminated by naff ego-farts like "xxx isn't a very good boulderer" - I'll get sone hand gel and a face mask)

Okay scratch that one off if you like, it just looked more obvious than the stand, given the SS has actual big holds to pull on with (and looked like the crux wouldn't be pulling off the deck but linking into the stand "position").

Swap it for Ultimate Warrior SS - another one where I've done the stand, very good in it's own right but the SS seemed like the true problem and clearly great despite a crux razor.

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#42 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 12, 2020, 05:50:55 pm
I've heard from a few that Fish Arete at Wimberry is another example of where the sitter is better than the stand?

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#43 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 12, 2020, 08:00:44 pm
I've heard from a few that Fish Arete at Wimberry is another example of where the sitter is better than the stand?

The stand is excellent!

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#44 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 12, 2020, 08:07:05 pm
Horrible slappy skin-grindy morpho yobfest.

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#45 Re: Sit starts vs shit starts.
March 12, 2020, 08:09:53 pm
Horrible slappy skin-grindy morpho yobfest.

Right up your street then lanky!

 

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