[AndyR]

you wanna be listening to phil....hes an environmental consultant.

So am I - doesn't mean I know anything about reinstating eroded ground though :wink:

Sounds like bigphil has the knowledge though.
Percy, do you think active management of the footpaths and building of terraces etc would be palatable for the landowners?

[Johnny Brown]

Climbers walking around blocks will kill the vegetation. Even with pads, the falling climbers will compact the soil making it useless for vegetation growth.

However, you will not find the utopian grassy landings under any popular boulder problems - it is simply not a realistic thing to expect.

This is bollocks. You have to look at it on a case by case basis.  Some problems never had grass under them and never will - others have quite good soil and are able to support grass despite trampling.

Take the plantation as an example. Not to be taken away is a popular problem, no doubt about it. And it has a tricky start that means people do fall off continually. Most of the landing still supports a decent turf. The current small bare patch only appeared 2 years ago - the ground got churned up during a very damp spell. Areas like this WILL support grass if we take just a tiny bit more care of them.

Deliverance used to be similar  - as I mentioned above, the soil only got removed because some fool had a fire under the arete, killing the stabilising vegetation and allowing the pool round the back to drain under deliverance. The face of business is similar - serious loss of soil only occurs where drainage lines are present to actually carry soil away. Compaction by trampling exacerbates this as it causes rain to flow over the surface rather than soaking in. This is stuff that could be nipped in the bud.

The majority of problems though wouldn't need banning for a variety of reasons; either they will never support vegetation or they're not susceptible to soil erosion. I think we're talking one problem at a time here.

And don't panic about this giving fuel for a blanket ban - there is little ecological value in this its just about taking some responsibility and maintaining things for ourselves and future generations.

[dave]

i was under the impression that the ground at the start of NTBTA had worn away quite a lot over the last 10-15years. The third-hand anecdotal evidence I had heard was that in the 80s gary gibson used to be able to reach the start of the ramp proper (i.e. after the crux) from the floor.

[Johnny Brown]

Some compacting maybe, but no 'wearing away'. That would seem to be incompatible with it staying grassed, no? I can't believe the ground was ever higher than the floor of the cave, which is only about 6" higher than the present ground level.

[Bubba]

NBTA wasn't that drastically different from what I can remember.

[dave]

i concure that it is conceivable that the person who told me the story may have exagerated slightly.

I've told you a million times i never exagerate.

[webbo]

When  NTBTA  first came in to the world the dry stone was fully complete.So you could balance up on it to reach the first holds.

[dave]

dry stone? baking powder?

[webbo]

I should have put wall in there.My excuse is that i'd come over strange.[someone asked me to do some work]

[cofe]

i bet strange wasn't too happy about that.

[webbo]

Funnily he was quite flattered.

[cofe]

alan james makes the point on ukc that, e.g. the plantation, is busier in summer and more erosion at foot of problems may actually take place in winter when ground is wet and boggy.

seems like a valid point and i'm prepared to be shot down by scientists but my point (yes i, for once, have one) is that we're obviously prepared to support a ban in summer when we don't go to many of these places but would we do the same in winter when arguably deliverance, NTBTA etc are in 'good' nick?

i would. question?

[dave]

frankly i can live without the plantation for a year or so, winter or not. the business boulder is shit, i've done everything i wanna do on the pebble, green traverse gets boring for the 150th time, i'm not about to do the joker or careless torque and any excuse to not spend beautiful winters days stood in a scruffy hole trying brad pit is welcomed with open arms.

The other option i recon is for the BMC to employ a groundsman for highrisk crags. The way i see it fi they can keep the square at the oval in mint nick year in year out then they can handle the deliverance landing no problems :wink:

[squeek]

Hasn't someone (with more knowledge about these things than me) made the point that the grass/turf won't grow very well in winter as it's cold and covered in frost?

Generally I don't see the problem with stopping climbing on a few boulders temporarily when there's so much else available in the nearby area.

[cofe]

for fucks sake: the plantation was only an example - we're not just discussing this are we. nor who's done what, where.

Hasn't someone (with more knowledge about these things than me) made the point that the grass/turf won't grow very well in winter as it's cold and covered in frost?

probably. but then we still climb through winter and it gets chewed up more - this was the point.

[a dense loner]

frankly i can live without the plantation for a year or so,

then don't go.

[webbo]

Close em all for year.


Whickham thorns anyone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kim]

Wow, quite surprised (fool?) by some of the negative reactions on ukc, i think this is definately worth persuing, so here's a few thoughts.

One main point is that we're talking about a limited number of areas where we need to actively repair the ground, on top of helping prevent future damage (which we should be doing all the time anyway). No amount of responsible climbing is going to get the ground under deliverance back to how it once was.

I can't see a way of doing something substantial without a ban on any area to be repaired. the fences round parts of paths at stanage show this is at least an accepted method of restricting access - and i think we'd definately need a physical barrier, rather than just signs.

If the ground is compacted and dried already (ala deliverance), it's obviously not going to be as simple as laying turf on top. I'd guess the existing soil would need to be dug out and remixed with suitable fresh material to create a medium plants could reestablish in. Then transplant onto this, be it turf of some kind or individual plants, i don't know.

May as well stick specifically with deliverance as it's the best (worst) and most quoted example - checked out the very obvious drainage channel adam was talking about today. Maybe it's possible to create a natural gradient away from deliverance face (ie so drainage goes towards popular end). Or perhaps something more complex. I'll check this at work but i think part of slope stabilisation generally involves digging the slope out to create a level step, then putting a layer of gravel/cobbles on the base before building back up to the level your building sits on (or in this case boulderers fall on). This provides water moving through the ground with an easy way through without affecting the stability of the material above (tho in this case we need to make sure there's enough moisture above for plants to grow of course). For buildings geogrid sheeting is used within the slope to help retain the area, tho not really sure of the specifics there. Obviously stabilising a small area in a moorland environment for plants to grow on is different to creating a house plot, but the techniques must be out there.

Assuming we figure out a viable technique which should work (and can be done by volunteers on a very low budget i guess), you'd like to think north lees/peak park/etc would be behind a group taking it upon themselves to address/fix/repair/prevent damage caused by their activities.

negatives... what if it all goes very wrong? ie we could end up with three feet of mud under deliverance... worth thinking about. But none of this bullshit thin end of the wedge argument about voluntary bans off cocktalk. If we can't try and improve our environment for fear of having to improve it some more then that's a pretty sorry state of affairs. Incidently we've seen loads of ring ouzels this year and if that's due to a few voluntary bans last spring then that's a good thing i rate!


fuck, it's taken me ages to type all that, bit of a ramble but there you go...

kim.

[dave]

I think its clear that any ban would be supported in the main, so they are a few issues to consider.

1. We need to get something clear, why its being done? as said above theres little ecological value in the ground beneath say deliverance, we would be doing it for our own benefit, i.e. to make boldering there more enjoyable.

2. Do we have a plan that has a high chance of repairing the ground? Of course you'd probably wat some kind of profesional consultancy on this, and if theres no solution then theres no point even starting a ban.

3. Thirdly, can whatever will be done be sustained in the long term? for example if any repair work would say take 6 months then not last 2 winters then its not worth it.

As kim says there may be all kinds of possible solutions revolving round diverting drainage etc. There would have to be some kind of study done into what going to provide the best most reliable and sustainable solution, and of course cost effective, as someone will have to pay for it. And we have to face the facts that it could turn out that theres is no cost effective solution adn we'll just have to live with it - its a possibilty.

[tommytwotone]

Fully support what's being proposed here, think in addition to Dave's points:

4. Where is it going to be done? The ground under Deliverance is the obvious example that's being used, but what about the end of the Brick at Burb South, Remergence wall, Trackside boulder...

Are we proposing a trial at one area be more widely applied if successful, and if is the ground at Stanage the proposed start point?

[Johnny Brown]

frankly i can live without the plantation for a year or so, winter or not. the business boulder is shit, i've done everything i wanna do on the pebble, green traverse gets boring for the 150th time, i'm not about to do the joker or careless torque and any excuse to not spend beautiful winters days stood in a scruffy hole trying brad pit is welcomed with open arms.

You're confusing things a bit there Dave... I'm damn sure Brad pit never had any grass so would never get banned, ditto the Joker. Plus the landing for Careless remains in pretty good shape.

The ground under Deliverance is the obvious example that's being used, but what about the end of the Brick at Burb South, Remergence wall, Trackside boulder...

Don't reckon remergence is a candidate - gets too waterogged hence the main vegetation being rushes. If someone wants to dig it up and put a drain in you might be able to get grass to grow but I think this is way down the list. The burbage south boulders are a similar one - that's peat bog really and always has a bit of a wasteland look to it in places. Not totally sure on individual cases though - will take a walk around soon.

Yeah Deliverance is the obvious one. I was looking at it last night and its a right mess. Essentially you've got classic spring-head type erosion going on with a central drainage channel. Reckon at least a foot has been lost from under pebble arete and no signs of slowing. Will post some pics up at some point to remind peeps - it was worse than i remembered.  Does anyone have a decent shot from the mid nineties for contrast??? On one summer its truly verdant green pasture.

[dave]

ditto - remegence ain't a high risk bit, just chuck a bag of gravel down every year or so.

can't think of any more ones as bad as deliverance.

[cowboyhat]

so thats it then. know one is allowed on deliverance if they re going to fall off.

I'm down with that, johnny?

I'm a facetious show off and will help no one.

[Falling Down]

Responding to various comments....

Re-emergence has never had grass since I've been going there (1990'ish)... have a look at the picture of Joe Heeley in The Power Of Climbing to see what  the Business Boulder used to look like & like JB say's, One Summer has Jason leaping madly and landing on lush grass and a beer mat.

IMHO, we shouldn't over-egg this the first time around.  Perhaps just select either the business boulder or the pebble for a trial run??

[andy higginson]

Just seen this on CT:

Peak Erosion - time for action

Well, not so much action, but a nice chat and a look at the problems and, maybe, decide whether we want to do anything about it.

So, plan is those who're interested meet up at Stanage Plantation on Wednesday 4th May. Anytime from 6pm onwards so people have time to chat/boulder/argue etc and then off to a suitable hostelry to decide on a course of action (or inaction).

Agenda is:
1. Ground Erosion
2. Hold Erosion
3. Drinking

See you there
JH