[teestub]

I’ve never read Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell but “Sparks” has been compared favourably, so if you liked that I suspect you’ll like this one.

Biiiiiiig recommend, alongside Piranesi also from Susanna Clarke if you haven’t read that. I’ll give this one a go!

I’ll let you read me in on the old solve et coagula afterwards 😆

[Falling Down]

 

Sorry Fiend! I did fear sounding like a right knobhead writing this down and then reading it back.

JB - Whoops, yeah Taylor (where did I get Walker from?). It’s a great read and I’m sure you and Ellie will enjoy it. Very Sheffield which is why I’m sure she followed you on Twitter.

As for the others, I’d leave the Davies until you’re in the right mood as it’s chunky and dense. The Pasulka is a good entertaining read, probably similar to the book Sean suggested as it has got lots of California high desert scenes in it too. Madden’s not too dense, but a bit of a mindblower. 

The Thiese has f-all to do with UFOs and is a lovely read.

Yeah I’ve read Higg’s KLF book. It’s good and funny (I think I talked about on here too) and of course they nicked pretty much everything from RaW and his associates at the time.  His two books on William Blake are brilliant.

Funnily enough, per KLF, last night, I discovered that this https://www.klfrs.com/dispatches-from-the-k-line runs through the street we live on, passing through the house nextdoor but one.

[Dolly]

Nice one, Ben, lot of interesting sounding stuff to explore there...

The Stirrings: Catherine Walker.

It's Taylor innit? Been intrigued by this since - weird flex alert - she followed me on Twitter (no idea why). Will pick up a copy as Ellie was curious too and is squarely in the core audience.

High Weirdness: Erik Davies.
American Cosmic (UFOs Religon and Technology) : Diane Pasulka.
Unidentified Hyper Object: James D Madden
Notes on Complexity, A Scientific Theory of Connection, Consciousness, and Being: Neil Thiese

These all sound great! Which would you recommend first? Have you read John Higgs' book on the KLF, I will have recommended it many pages back? Touches on similar ground although no doubt in a lighter manner. Also reminds me I ground to a halt half way through a McGilchrist tome a couple of years back... need to revisit.

I haven’t finisehed it either and I’m not sure it’s “necessary “ TBH.

[Dolly]

I know I’ve mentioned it on another thread but Ecos Travels in hyper Reality is IMO the perfect amalgum of Euro pride scintillating intellect withering dismissal of the US and an expression of “what’s wrong” with modern culture. It’s old but still spot on IMO with genuine LOL moments

[Falling Down]

That’s a great book Dolly.

On McGilchrist, I agree with you about the second half of Master and his Emmisary. It would have been a better book without that.

[Falling Down]

(Not a dig FD, love your reviews and some of these do look great, I've just bought notes on complexity)

Hehe thanks Duma. I’ll be interested to hear what you make of it.

[ToxicBilberry]

Notes on Complexity is Ok, although at times it feels like the author is working in political metaphors to support his own belief systems. One of the strongest proponents of philosophical idealism is Bernardo Kastrup who’s book - why materialism is baloney, does a better job of explaining it. One of the most enjoyable books I’ve read in this field is Rupert Sheldrake’s ‘The Science Delusion’ where he describes looking for consciousness in the brain as akin to looking for a TV program in the back of the set.

Personally I’m a bit drained with the hard problem of consciousness exploration, lots of it seems to be about men trying to find and replicate ‘God’. Ray Kurzweil and Martine Rothblatt must be waiting with baited breath.

I prefer Roger Scruton’s analysis that whatever the answer is, it’s not to be found in words but in how we interface with the ‘world’ in a non symbolic and symbolic way.

[ToxicBilberry]

Funnily enough this quote I just found, by Martine Rothblatt, sums up part of the message of the book-

‘I’m transcending the border of my body to connect with a greater creator collectivity. I’m transcending white or black to just be a person. I’m transcending flesh to be a consciousness. I’m transcending Earth to be part of the galaxy. I’m transcending limitations to be unlimited.‘

Now get yourself down the Terasem chapel and transcend to the digital Omega point! 😆

[TobyD]

Malice by Keigo Higashino; a very good Japanese murder mystery novel which is as surprising as the other things of his that I've read. That said, I didn't love it as much as the Detective Galileo series which I've read all of. The characters in Malice aren't as well developed as the others and it depends more on the clever, twisty plot. Still very much worth reading, however.

[Falling Down]

I’m confused TB. What book?  Do you mean Complexity? If so, I don’t think Thiese is anywhere near proposing the sort of garbage that Kurzweil and Rothblatt rattle on about. In fact I’d hazard a guess that he’d be downright dismissive.

(I’m very familiar with Kastrup’s work. I like it). 

Also if you’re curious about scientism then can I suggest reading Bruno Latour and Etienne Soreiuex (particularly Les Différents modes d'existence, 1943) over Sheldrake?

[ToxicBilberry]

Hi FD, yes I meant Complexity. It was a nicely written book with lots of anecdotes and good use of analogy and metaphor which helped me understand some complex ideas a bit better. My criticism which is probably due to weariness with the approach, is the constant examination of Eastern Mysticism through the lens of Western Empiricism. It has a utilitarian feel to it where by 'science' can be used to end 'suffering' and bring equitable harmony to the universe. (In Spengler's analysis this would be evidence of the incommunicable nature of cultures.) For example he juxtaposes idea of the delusion of authority in the localism of the ant colony with a transcendent state which can be extracted from the metaphysical realm to join with material life. My point about Martine Rothblatt and Ray Kurzweil is not that the author will be interested in them, but they will be interested in him.

Thanks for the other author suggestions I'll have a look, I'm not sure I'm intellectually qualified to read work by French authors, I do like Simone Weil and her rather simplistic approach to this conundrum where 'Love of God is pure when joy and suffering inspire an equal degree of gratitude.' That is if God is the metaphysical realm Complexity is referring to.

[Falling Down]

Thanks TB that’s helpful, although I didn't take away the same message that science could help to end suffering, but hey, we pour ourselves into books and take away things in different ways right?

The Souriau book is available in English (sorry I was being a wanker quoting in French, I wouldn’t have a clue how to read it either), as The Different Modes of Existence. Latour wrote an extensive introduction which is good.

[ToxicBilberry]

Thanks! I'll take a look at those, I have just listened to a cambridge lecture by Latour on Modes of Existence - I've got to say I find it hard to be motivated by the French post-modern philosophers, it's the playing with language and everything is a social construct etc. I prefer to believe in fundamental truths such a beauty and natural order.

[Falling Down]

OK. For the record though, Latour wasn't a post-modernist, nor a social constructivist.

Go well, and please take good care of yourself as, yet again, you appear to be picking a deliberately contrarian position and a provocative, aggressive stance on several other threads on here. I wonder what that is like for you and how isolating it is?

I'm pretty sure everyone else here on UKB also shares your desire for beauty so I'd invite you to lean into that and find some common ground perhaps?

[ToxicBilberry]

Thanks TD I shall persist with trying to understand him. Re - the rest, I’m good. Cheers

[spidermonkey09]

It’s definitely well written and got interesting engaging characters. Clearly it really worked as a whole for lots of readers, I just wasn’t one of them.

In fact I felt really annoyed with and manipulated by the author. A divisive book. 

Just finished it. I confess to feeling a bit perplexed what all the fuss online was about, which I've been reading about now I'm done.


Spoilers below

NSFW  :

The main critique that I can identify seems to be that the abuse depicted is simply too much and is gratuitous. I completely don't agree with this. I actually thought while reading it that Yanagihara had commendably avoided too many specific details (there are very few, if any, descriptors of rape/sex scenes, for example). I think I perhaps have a particularly high tolerance to violence/unpleasantness in literature /film (Will Hunt would agree!) but I really didn't think this was beyond the pale. After all, the self harm, the abuse is the point of the novel. I would agree some of it is a bit clunky (Caleb in particular was a blunt instrument of a character and could have been cut completely.) but I found it quite refreshing to have that level of agency given to a character who has been abused. Jude is a victim, as the reams of suffering in the books pages make clear, but he fights and fights to retain agency and ends his life on his own terms. I see little to be upset about with that specific point, especially in the context of ongoing debates about assisted dying etc.

Interested to hear Jamie and others opinions. I've got more thoughts but don't want to write a massive post in one. My main objection to the book is that it needed a good editor, it could have been 200 pages shorter quite comfortably!

[spidermonkey09]

For those interested I thought this was a good overview of the debate. Spoilers obviously.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2023/mar/11/torture-pr0n-or-serious-literature-the-love-hate-phenomenon-of-cult-novel-a-little-life

[JamieG]

The second main reply here (https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/w1vx33/mental_health_professionals_views_on_a_little_life/) by the now deleted user is basically the same problem I had but stated more forcefully.

[seankenny]

American Cosmic (UFOs Religon and Technology) : Diane Pasulka.

Pasulka is a professor of religous studies whose research and previous books were about Catholicism and purgatory.  Someone suggested she should take a look at the UFO/UAP phemomenon which she did and has written this brilliant book.  A reviewer at Vox described the book as not "so much about the truth of UFOs or aliens as it is about what the appeal of belief in those things says about our culture and the shifting roles of religion and technology in it. On the surface, it's a book about the popularity of belief in aliens, but it's really a deep look at how myths and religions are created in the first place and how human beings deal with unexplainable experiences." 

Really interesting interview with Pasulka here on the podcast The Gray Area:

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-gray-area-with-sean-illing/id1081584611?i=1000654658783

[spidermonkey09]

The second main reply here (https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/w1vx33/mental_health_professionals_views_on_a_little_life/) by the now deleted user is basically the same problem I had but stated more forcefully.

Putting all this in NSFW as its a bit heavy, and also spoilers.

NSFW  :

Thanks for this Jamie. I can't remember if this is your field professionally as well?

I think thats a reasonable critique but I can't help but think the user is taking the book a bit literally. I think the fact that the setting is essentially timeless, where 40 years go by and 9/11 apparently doesn't happen, makes it clear that the story is something of an allegory rather than to be taken too literally. Thus I'm not super convinced by the 'this would never happen in real life, someone would have stopped it!' argument; that is literally the point of fiction, its not real life. Its more making point about the depths of suffering a human is capable of enduring, rather than saying 'this exact scenario could actually happen,' i thought. You could make the same argument about American Psycho; Patrick Bateman obviously wouldn't be able to kill as he did in the book in real life. Both Bateman's killing and the succession of abusive situations that Jude finds himself in are stylised representations of reality.

Also, re the 'some people don't get better' line; I'm not sure if the forceful rebuttal of this they present, namely that 'people do get better...or they commit suicide much earlier' is a) making the point they think it is, or b) even accepted as true? (I certainly was under the impression as a lay member of the public that some people absolutely did not get better; perhaps this is totally wrong.) Again, its fiction not real life. The extended, drawn out nature of Jude's suffering is part of the point of the book.

I dunno, TLDR is basically that I think that critique, while valid in some ways, especially re the Caleb plot line which I agree is the weakest part of the book by miles, is far too literal for a work of fiction, especially given that the work of fiction is clearly set in some sort of hazy limbo like world, where everything is expensive, everyone is successful, and the characters exist in some sort of hermetically sealed vault away from the rest of the world...seems pretty clear to me its not supposed to be a realistic representation, and so shouldn't be held to 'real life' standards.

interesting though!

[/nsfw]
[/nsfw]

[JamieG]

Yeah good points. When I was reading it I don’t think I could have told you what was bugging me. I certainly enjoyed the start. But at some point felt it ‘jumped the shark’ and got silly. Only post-hoc did I read the types of discussions linked and felt it chimed with me. So maybe that was me just looking for a justification for how I felt.

I agree that fiction should be allowed to extend and exaggerate ‘real life’, after all that’s the point. But I always feel it needs strong internal consistency and needs to be loyal to its characters. The more I read, the less I understood the motivations of the characters and their relationships seemed less and less ‘realistic’, at least within the confines of the fiction. Ultimately I felt the author was doing things not in service of the story or characters but as a blunt instrument to get a rise out of the reader. The literally equivalent of a jump scare. Effective but cheap.

(I’m a scientist by trade but have close family that worked professionally in mental health so I suppose I might be somewhat intolerant of the field being poorly portrayed)

[cowboyhat]

One of my favourite films.  Watching it in the cinema is a totally different and almost transformative experience compared to watching at home. I’ve had dreams about scenes and the characters.

Roadside Picnic sounds ace.  Will give that a read.

I'd missed this; you know M John's Nova Swing leans heavily into roadside picnic... Its credited at the beginning. So if you've read that, (i think some people on here have?)

Both excellent, I guess i was lucky in that I read them in order, by accident of course. What M John Harrison does is great because it takes the idea and just furthers it a bit; we get to spend more time exploring this concept, and done so well. I thing Nova Swing is the my fav of that trilogy.

Stalker wasn't my favourite but I guess i loved the book so much and I watched it immediately after reading. Tarkovsky's films just aren't like anyone elses, he's outside comparison. Rublev and Solaris are peerless. Tremendously affecting.



Something else i'd missed/ have just discovered which is not books but i include here because see above etc

The KLF have reissued their back catalogue and put it on spotify. Confusingly Chill Out has been renamed as Come Down Dawn, and all the tracks have been renamed. Presumably copyright issues.

[sherlock]

Just finished Hellhound on his Trail by Harrison Sides.
Think it was a Falling Down recommendation.
Absolutely gripping meticulously researched investigation into the assassination of Martin Luther King, the ensuing manhunt and it's aftermath. I thought it might be a little dry but it was by turns intriguing and turn the page gripping. What an astonishing story and (for me at least) the realisation that the loony right has always been present across the pond.
Not my usual sort of thing but I honestly couldn't put it down.
Great rec. FD, thanks!

[Falling Down]

Ooh I didn’t know that about Nova Swing and Roadside Picnic, I’ll definitely give the latter a read now. Thanks Cowboyhat.

Sherlock, I’m glad you were as gripped as I was with Hellhound. I got glommed onto it after reading Danny Baker raving about it on Twitter. A great book.

[Falling Down]

Thanks Sean for the podcast link. I’ll have a listen.