[Buoux 8C]

I have been thining about this lately, basically it seams to be becoming more frequent that climbers of all levels are breaking through the grade barriers by climbing blatant overgraded/soft routes or problems to achieve this. Or also claiming a higher grade than what is the consensus becasue it felt a little harder for them or the sun was out that day etc.
obviously most climbers just enjoy climbing and grades dont really bother them, but its always nice to climb one grade harder etc etc.

I reckon theirs two types of climbers, the ones that would rather climb a grade easier than to be a level higher by doing an overgraded problem, or inflating grades of certain things,

or someone who will have any number even if in their own mind they truly know its not that grad.

The problem lies that if somone climbs say three problems that are given font 8a (but are more like 7c/7c+) in an area thats blatantly overgraded, if they where to actually climb a problem that was proper 8a it would obviously feel alot harder than the other three problems they had done, they would therefore give the problem 8a+/8b.
then in no time at all a mountain of high grades are spread around.

but then the climber who is actually honest with his/her own abiltys and would downgrade a problem rather than taking the grade and shouting about it, trying to make a name of themselve gain sponsorship etc etc, is affected in a way that although they are climbing as hard or harder than the grade grabbers, their achivemnets in terms of numbers look so little. and the truly talented climbers arnt eaisly identified.

[Fiend]

All about the second option.

In fact the first option is logically self defeating:

A grade corresponds to the actual difficulty of the problem.

If a problem is overgraded, the grade given does not correspond to the actual difficulty of the problem. A different, lower, grade corresponds to the actual difficulty of the problem.

Therefore if you're climbing an overgraded problem, you're actually climbing a problem of a lower grade than it's given.

...so if you're climbing an overgraded problem for the grade, you've defeated yourself, you're a retard, and you're probably related to one of the people who rants against me on RockTalk.

[Graeme]

I personally will take the problem at whatever grade, but I also think its important to get consolidated at that grade within the next 12 months, I've climbed a couple of V7's but in reality I'm probably a V5 climber because the problems I have done suit me.
It really boils down to honesty, and if your lying about what you've done you'll get found out.
I personally couldn't vote for either for my incomprehensible reasons given.
Well I suppose what I'd say is climb the grade and the get established.
But thats not to say don't try harder things, because thats a pretty valid way of getting strong.

[Stubbs]

Was recently a bit dissappointed when i finally got Dolphin Belly Slap nailed at the cliff, and the first V7 ticked in my guide, only to find it downgraded on Yorkshiregrit.com, but i went with the opinion of the masses, rather than the guide, and am trying a few more well established V7's instead.

I therefore went for the second option

[dave]

Think buoux8c has a good point but misses one crucial aspect, its that sometimes (and this happens to us all) you'll do a problem thats say a grade harder to 2 than what you usually climb, but at that time you will be fully convinced with all sincerity that the grade was more or less right. This is nowt to do with wanting to claim higher grades, its just happens sometimes to all of us, especially if you've been trying something for a while then eventually do it, it may feel hard since you've spent ages on it and had to fight. Often its only when you've gone back and done a problem a few times that you may then realise its not as hard as you thought originally.

Also, there is a danger that to combat this everyone will go round and automatically downgrade everything they do as not to be seen as grade-chasers - this is just as bad really and doesn no-one any good in the long run.

Also i don't think there are "two types of person" in this issue. For a start if we're honest then we probably all fall into each camp at some time or another. I've certainly been guilty of taking the grade sometimes, and also downgrading everything. I think if anyone really thinks they are only at 1 extreme of the scale then they are as much part of the problem as anyone else.

[Fiend]

Also, there is a danger that to combat this everyone will go round and automatically downgrade everything they do as not to be seen as grade-chasers - this is just as bad really and doesn no-one any good in the long run.

Agreed, I was going to add a sub-note about it being important to get a fair consensus and to avoid the opposite ego-driven thing of downgrading stuff to make one seem harder.

It's really all about having a fair and accurate-as-possible consensus....and then whether one can do it or not is another issue =).

[Sloper]

Definitely in the second category, never climbed harder than font 7b+ (that's in font rather than the old joke peak font grades) and would love to do a proper 7c, but rathe than cheating or finding an overgraded problem I'd aspire to something like berzina.

[tommytwotone]

sometimes (and this happens to us all) you'll do a problem thats say a grade harder to 2 than what you usually climb, but at that time you will be fully convinced with all sincerity that the grade was more or less right. This is nowt to do with wanting to claim higher grades, its just happens sometimes to all of us, especially if you've been trying something for a while then eventually do it, it may feel hard since you've spent ages on it and had to fight. Often its only when you've gone back and done a problem a few times that you may then realise its not as hard as you thought originally.

also, what about suddenly cracking a much better sequence/finding a different smear that makes the problem easier?

My experience:

IMHO I've maxed out at Eng 6b/B6/V5/Font 6c (think that's covered it!), yet i can do Trackside and that Bad Landing Boulder thing @ Cuba, both B8 in the tha guide (both, I'd imagine, due to good beta)

Much as I find 'em hard  to repeat, I'm under no illusion that I'm climbing at that level, and I'm also still having a war of attrition with Banana Finger Direct!

And personally, I don't get as much enjoyment out of doing them as some other stuff. I'd rather climb Cresent Arete 10 times than do that Bad Landing thing once!

[account_inactive]

............on the other hand I am a grade grabbing hungry whore that will travel to great length to get easy ticks for the grade and then spray to everyone I know how I flashed that E1.

LOL

The higher grade only means something if you NEED it. Fuck it, I climb for fun not prizes and ribbons

[dave]

ironically, crescent arete has a worse landing than that bad landing thing.

[moose]

I'm a second category man - possibly to an unhealthy extreme.  Because I view myself as having max'd out at ~V5 I always assume that any of my harder ticks are either soft or morpho' (I am pretty tall).  Though this does get a bit depressing as it denies myself the possibility of any improvement or just plain having a good day.  Which, come to think of it, is a bit daft as I have only been climbing with any intent for about a year.

[Bonjoy]

Inevitably if you try a wide range of problems at or near your limit, you will always end up 'breaking' a new grade on a soft-touch problem. Does this mean you are a grade chaser because the only prob you have done at a grade is close to it's lower limit? I'd say not.

[Johnny Brown]

Wise words from the bee-man.

What also has to be realised is that grades can never be accurate. For some, the consensus grade will be wrong. What then? For a true appreciation of grades you need to be involved in trying to reach a consensus other than your mates in the pub. You'll soon realise it can't be done.

[account_inactive]

....for a quick concise and informed grade I usually post up on Ukclimbing.bum

[the_dom]

I'm a second category man - possibly to an unhealthy extreme.  Because I view myself as having max'd out at ~V5 I always assume that any of my harder ticks are either soft or morpho' (I am pretty tall).  Though this does get a bit depressing as it denies myself the possibility of any improvement or just plain having a good day.  Which, come to think of it, is a bit daft as I have only been climbing with any intent for about a year.

I'm the same. My comfortable  limit is about V5 or 6, but I've climbed probably 20 problems harder, and the majority of them are probably morpho or soft.

I have no problem with it, and I'll take the tick, but I'll tell anyone who wants to know that they're soft or morpho (especially if I see strong but shorter people struggle on them).

[SA Chris]

Inevitably if you try a wide range of problems at or near your limit, you will always end up 'breaking' a new grade on a soft-touch problem. Does this mean you are a grade chaser because the only prob you have done at a grade is close to it's lower limit? I'd say not.

I was going to say the same thing. Sometimes it's good to get on something that is a soft touch to mentally break a grade barrier, as a "double bluff" of your own mental limitations; ie you know you are capable of climbing things of that grade, but get psyched out, so you do somethnig you know is a soft touch, to fool your own psyche (if that makes sense).

I think this is more relevant to climbing routes than boulder problems though.

Nothing wrong with claiming a soft touch if you know it's a soft touch. At the end of the day you are only teasing your shit with a stick otherwise (as they say back home).

[webbo]

i'm a total grade whore.i claim everything at the highest grade i can find and i'll also up grade things,but as i only really ever discuss grades with my mate bob,its pretty irrevelant on the grand scale of things.

i've always been puzzled to why folk seem to belive something is soft touch for the grade just cos they done it.all this does is dent your self esteem and there are enough other things in my life to do this with out making the thing that takes you away from all that shit (CLIMBING) another to give you stress.

[c.j.d.]

Grades are all over the place, and always have been.  The basic fact that people forget is that no one used to give much thought to it, as it was a lot more fun than it is now,  (even though you still love it(hopefully)).  Saying that, I can sometimes path something given 8a/V11, and climb like a donkey on a techniczl V4, and probably fall off it.  I very often get burnt off by students in the beacon on V3's, but could kick their arses outside on a V12.  It' all relative really, and thats what makes grading/taking the grade such a ridiculous thread/conversation.  Or maybe I only climb V4 and take the grade on soft touch V13's... jesus, do I have to go on? :D

[cofe]

genius.

was it chris jackson who gave everything hvs cos he couldn't climb e1? well i'm like that at the moment with 7a+... maybe they are all wimberry 8c?

[Sloper]

Perhaps the way forward is to climb without a guidebook, that way you just enjoy it and don't have to worry about the grade.

Down with guides.

(no offence to my putative learned friend)

[Paz]

If I'm on my own with out a guidebook then I find I'll never get on anything hard, so how are you ever going to get better.  Difficulty is important.  I can struggle on and try just as hard on a much `easier' problem than a much `harder' one, and (this is me thinking from a `if that was on a route' point of view') I can't reliably tell the difference.  The two problems are probably of different types, and it's more than just down to technique (obviously a whack sequence will feel hard).  The best way to interpret grades is to compare problems of the same type (though it was interesting to hear WSS compared to La Berezina).  Otherwise how can grading compared to what you've done before have any meaning?  Maybe one of the things screwing grades up is that you don't need to be strong (apart from fingers) to climb `hard' on grit.  On a lot of moderately difficult, say not so steep but delicate (and dare I say reachy), problems like this (and there are a lot) climbers who've accomplished harder things still have to put effort in.  But this is a good thing as it allows two people of different abilities to climb together, if we don't screw the grades up by automatically upgrading a V3 as Mr V13 took all day over it.  You're allowed to have an off day.  A lot of the harder problems are of a much different style, (on different rock) where it's much easier to grade going on how it feels.  Possibly because you can't get away with having no strength.  Climbing these might also be how Mr V13 got so good and strong.  Despite this and two other factors(*) a load of us middle graders, are actually still really good climbers, maybe even sometimes technically outstanding, pretty powerful in a way, but never anywhere as strong.  

(*) Time/Locality - It's much easier to get problems done (and wired) that you can spend ages on, e.g. in the peak if you live in Sheffield.  They're the same grade, but I'm not going to do in a weekend what someone took 10 afternoons from S7 on.  Does this mean I can't?  It's also surprising the craft/skills you need to boulder outside properly (this is one reason why routes are hard), which you develop by spending time doing it, ideally with other boulderers - witness some right amateur displays in the peak.  
     Specifity/Grading at your limit- I'm often surprised to the contrary but can any of us claim to be able to climb problems of all types of the grade of the hardest problem we've ever done.  Even bouldering itself seems to have it's own typical style of climbing.  If this ultimate all rounder existed I'd reckon that if they played to their strengths (and spent a long time searching the world (tip - start in Font)) then they'd be able to go up a grade.

[Sloper]

Re the guidebook thing, when pissing around at he wall do you bother looking at the grades of the problems or d you just pull on?

[dave]

but sloper check this, you're visiting an area, you wanna go somewhere where theres a load of problems you can do in a go, and you want some stuff near your limit to test you.

the "oh grades don't matter, we don't need them" thing is all very well, but consider with no guidebook grades, you've no idea how hard the problems are.  so johnny punter turns up at the tor looking for loads of quality V1s. Rich simpson turns up at birchens looking for some 8a+s.  Kapiche?

[Stubbs]

Re the guidebook thing, when pissing around at he wall do you bother looking at the grades of the problems or d you just pull on?

It's easier to tell at the wall, especially if it is your local one, as you will know how steep the overhangs feel, what specific holds feel like, and finding the right sequence is not a problem.

Outdoors is more subtle, so an overhanging block could have small but positive holds and prove to be easier thatn a near vertical wall that has similar looking, but more rounded holds.

[moose]

Re the guidebook thing, when pissing around at he wall do you bother looking at the grades of the problems or d you just pull on?

True enough, like most folk at walls, I potter: having a quick thrash around on whatever takes my fancy.  Its "just training" after all and the problems are all equally convenient.  But, when I have driven a long way for my first chance of a climb after weeks of shitty weather I like to feel that I am not potentially wasting my efforts on something far too hard or frankly poor.  Okay, this this cherry picking mentality probably does mean that am missing out on some hidden gems and increasing wear and tear on the classics.  But when my favoured "local" crags are 70 miles away I just cannot bring myself to compremise too much.

Another factor is motivation: I climb on my own and often find it difficult to maintain the focus required for a difficult problem.  The knowledge that the problem is considered to be of a grade I aspire to and is a "classic" sometimes provide the impetus I need... though that's probably specific to my pathetic ticking mentality!