[andy moles]

I think Robbie Phillips broke a micro traxion by getting a sling caught in it or something like that, but Google isn't answering my query.

[csl]

There is a very comprehensive video on rope soloing with progress capture pulleys from How Not 2 - the guest is a guy called Brent who is a bit of a rope solo expert and now has a company (avant) selling rope solo gear. Worth a watch since he discusses most of these risks in detail.

https://youtu.be/DHgozZxLbyo?si=ktYVE6ISTlW6NFWg

Edit: maybe worth a topic split at this point?

[northern yob]

Sorry, to clarify you're recommending the advice of someone who has decided on a Shunt?   

🤣 I know right…. In all seriousness it does highlight personal preference etc! Dave’s no mug and I imagine has more rope solo time than anyone out there. I don’t know the device so I can’t criticise, it was more highlighting nothing is perfect…. And also it’s good to be aware, like I said I’m more than happy for people to rip my system to shreds, I’d rather be alive and wrong.

I’ve read reports of ropes snapping…. Doesn’t mean I don’t use them! Most accidents are user error! Always be diligent. Like I said climbing is dangerous, Dave’s still alive and he uses a shunt!!

Yes topic split

[Paul B]

On another note, sadly Gilles Gautier (66) has died. I knew him through visiting Tsaranoro and he's put an awful lot of effort into that valley through the years.

[Fultonius]

The latter is the bigger on for me on a hard route. I find trying to belay my partner and haul at the same time is quite a logistical and rope management challenge,but at the same time the reduced physical load of not seconding with a heavy pack is definitely worth it.

I'm a bit surprised this is a significant issue. You're clearly a far more attentive belayer than me. Guide plate for the second (Reverso 4) and the MT for hauling.

It's not so much a "significant" issue, as an area where some gains and energy saving can be made - but I agree it's marginal if a gain at all (having only considered it and not actually tested it). Clearly my partners weren't convinced either as I did suggest testing it on a warm up route but we never did.

On my last longer trip doing bigger routes in the Dolomites, we ended up defaulting to belaying the second (on most pitches except cruxes) using a micro trax, and hauling on a nano. Seemed to slightly reduce belaying effort and felt safe enough.

[jwi]

It is easy to belay and haul at the same time on bolted multipitch routes. Even my small-ish wife can easily do it.

First: the bag must be light, so no stupid shit in the bag, just bars&gels, water, sweater+lighweight windjacket and lightweight shoes.

Second: belay the 2nd on a directional pulley. Miles better then a reverso. (Even if you climb with twins: in that case you need three directional pulleys.)

Put in the directional pulleys both on the tagline and the leadline at the same time. It is much faster to pull up rope for stacking through a directional pulley than without.

If belaying from a ledge the quickest is to pull both ropes at the same time, pull the haulbag 5 ahead then pull in both in a single heap as when belaying a second on twins. But especially if the pitch is hard so that the 2nd is slow it is also easy to put the two ropes in different heaps.

If belaying on a hanging belay, take a wide stance and stack the haul line on one foot and the lead line on the other foot. When the haulbag has arrived to the belay you can transfer the haul line to a shoulder-length sling if that is more comfortable.

Petzl's kevlar haul line is really slick and rarely get caught in stuff, so if the rock is clean below the belay, there is little wind etc. you can make really big loops.

If the bag is so heavy that you need a tiblock and a footloop to help hauling, you should probably bring less water, but it is usually still quite manageable if belaying the  second with a directional pulley.

If the pitch ends with a traverse, transfer the 2nd to a reverso before they unclip the last quickdraw.

[Paul B]

Second: belay the 2nd on a directional pulley. Miles better then a reverso. (Even if you climb with twins: in that case you need three directional pulleys.)

Which device do you use? Kong Italy make a whole host of kit that you don't see in use very often but having looked at this thread I noticed they have some new stuff that would've made life easier in the past.

[jwi]

Second: belay the 2nd on a directional pulley. Miles better then a reverso. (Even if you climb with twins: in that case you need three directional pulleys.)

Which device do you use? Kong Italy make a whole host of kit that you don't see in use very often but having looked at this thread I noticed they have some new stuff that would've made life easier in the past.

I have a micro- and a nano- traxion. I prefer the nano. I will buy one more nano if I do something that requires hauling + leading on doubles, like stuff in Ordesa or some of the routes on Peña Montanesa etc.

[spidermonkey09]

Please excuse the idiot question jwi, but when you say belay the second on the nano traxion, is this in exactly the same way you would with a grigri, eg clipped directly to anchor, pull rope through, autolock engages if second falls?

[jwi]

Yes. Just clip it in one of the bolts in the belay. Petzl has some stuff on their web.

[andy moles]

I think Robbie Phillips broke a micro traxion by getting a sling caught in it or something like that, but Google isn't answering my query.

Just to clarify this, I asked Robbie about it and he doesn't actually know when or how the failure occurred. He was using it to ascend a fixed rope and realised the cam was broken and not engaging.

[Paul B]

I haven't broken one but I did find it disengaged and have no explanation for it being so. I was basically soloing at a local quarry doing lots of mileage before a trip; up, run round to the bottom, repeat etc. I wasn't using two devices and was treating the MT as the backup as it was pretty easy ground.

[andy moles]

Yes. Just clip it in one of the bolts in the belay. Petzl has some stuff on their web.

https://m.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-the-second-with-a-MICRO-TRAXION--beware-of-any-fall?ProductName=NANO-TRAXION

Basically, don't allow any slack and don't do it on a shagged rope.

Also, know what you're going to do in the event of having to lower your second for some reason.

[petejh]

I've used micro traxion or grigri a lot for rope-soloing (without backup) while equipping new routes. The micro traxion has disengaged once, versus the grigri never (obvs - there's no catch). Which is one time too many. I've also heard too many other anecdotes (3 more in this thread...) saying the same thing about the micro-traxion disengaging unnoticed.

If you spend enough hours using a device the odds increase of experiencing one of its potential failures. So I stopped using the MT as that one failure in less #hrs than the grigri's no failures made it too risky. Would like to get a Taz Lov to replace the grigri.

Haven't used the MT for belaying seconds but I happily would on routes where it was labour-saving enough to be worthwhile. You have more control over and focus on the device while belaying than when rope-soloing or ascending, when your focus is distracted by climbing/moving.

[MischaHY]

This device is looking to have the potential to be useful in this context. Let’s see if it gets through certification intact. Autolock on 5.5mm is certainly impressive.

https://alternativecurrent.it/en/sulu/

[northern yob]

I've used micro traxion or grigri a lot for rope-soloing (without backup) while equipping new routes. The micro traxion has disengaged once, versus the grigri never (obvs - there's no catch). Which is one time too many. I've also heard too many other anecdotes (3 more in this thread...) saying the same thing about the micro-traxion disengaging unnoticed.

If you spend enough hours using a device the odds increase of experiencing one of its potential failures. So I stopped using the MT as that one failure in less #hrs than the grigri's no failures made it too risky. Would like to get a Taz Lov to replace the grigri.

Haven't used the MT for belaying seconds but I happily would on routes where it was labour-saving enough to be worthwhile. You have more control over and focus on the device while belaying than when rope-soloing or ascending, when your focus is distracted by climbing/moving.

Definitely food for thought…. I’ve not used the micro traxion much but have also experienced a mysterious disengagement….. it was quite early on in my experience of using it, there’s a possibility I never engaged it! The only thing I’m sure of is it wasn’t engaged at the top!! I did have a nano back up so wasn’t overly concerned. That’s exactly why I was running the back up… gonna look at the petzl website and consider possibly using two nano’s…. A gri gri is great for working hard things…. If you can climb it on a gri gri you can lead it…. The taking in is a reasonable substitute for placing gear.
Back in the day we worked a route on El cap with gri gri’s we had the whole route fixed(very bad style) and rocked up at the bottom with shoes, chalk a gri gri each and a jumar and foot loop each, it made for a super fun day, and was a highly efficient way of working the route! The total anti style to what we had initially tried to do…..

I’m definitely open to other devices, as I will defo be using fix and follow and rope soloing in the future.

[remus]

Punter question incoming, but why use a micro traxion over a nano traxion? It sounds like the nano is less likely to accidentally disengage.

[jwi]

Punter question incoming, but why use a micro traxion over a nano traxion? It sounds like the nano is less likely to accidentally disengage.

Speculation: Nano is newer, so people are more likely to own a micro-traxion?

When I bought the micro, the nano did not yet exist, but for what I use it for (protecting second and hauling) the nano just makes more sense. It is easy to disengage the teeth by just pulling on the cam directly when needed.

[Paul B]

Same. The MT was brand new and even the Edelrid equivalent came a fair bit later? That uses a different mechanism to disengage the cam.

[northern yob]

I’m not aware of the numbers….. but the micro is slightly bigger which in my tiny brain = stronger. I have 2 micro’s and one nano, seems like most people use the micro for rope solo….. but I’m not sure why, I presume they have tiny brains like me. Will probably get another nano at some point just because, the micro nano combo works pretty well and seems to have most things covered, at least in my tiny brain.

[csl]

I’m not aware of the numbers….. but the micro is slightly bigger which in my tiny brain = stronger. I have 2 micro’s and one nano, seems like most people use the micro for rope solo….. but I’m not sure why, I presume they have tiny brains like me. Will probably get another nano at some point just because, the micro nano combo works pretty well and seems to have most things covered, at least in my tiny brain.

Micro self-feeds better than a nano so you can have less weight on the rope below you - I only have one of each so use the same combo as you.

[duncan]

I don't do a huge amount of top-rope soloing but I've played with a few devices over the years including the Taz Lov, microtrax, grigri, shunt, petzl handled ascender, and knots in the rope.

The Taz Lov is the least bad of all of these for my purposes: single-pitch TR soloing on vertical-ish routes. It feeds as well as a microtrax. and locks nearly as well as a grigri. Being able to switch from self-belaying to abseiling without having to change devices is great. Of course you can do this with a grigri too but I could never get a grigri to feed to my satisfaction. Less of an issue if you just want to work a move or two of course; I can't imagine working El Cap. this way like Mr Yob!

The Taz Lov sometimes slipped a little on my shiny new 10.5mm semi-static (disconcerting to start with but it always grabed after 6-8"), is heavy, and is costly. I still like to have a back-up on a second rope when single-pitch TR soloing but I am old and timid.

For the same reasons I still need convincing that fix-and-follow is truly The Better Way although it's certainly intriguing. 

 

[Paul B]

Of course you can do this with a grigri too but I could never get a grigri to feed to my satisfaction. Less of an issue if you just want to work a move or two of course; I can't imagine working El Cap. this way like Mr Yob!

Original GG with the 'death-mod' (removal of that triangular bit of metal) and an (un)suitably thin rope feeds just fine but they are a bit 'wiggy' (I've been pretty happy using mine for TR solo, with a backup knot, but it's been retired for a long time for any lead stuff). Looking back, it's pretty amusing that I bought a 20 quid GG from UKC and borrowed my neighbour's grinder to modify it aged 16 ish.

...and ditto.

[andy moles]

Micro self-feeds better than a nano so you can have less weight on the rope below you - I only have one of each so use the same combo as you.

My reason for having a micro rather than nano is exactly the same as others above, that the nano hasn't been around very long, but having read all these cases of unexplained disengagements I'm convinced I need a nano, and to put up with it not following as readily.

I'm guessing if you're using both you have the upper device pulled higher with a bit of elastic around your neck or something?

Given the micro has less resistance but also a slight risk of disengaging, is there a better way round to have them? I'm trying to picture what could potentially happen if the micro is on top and disengages when you fall - device meets device, is there a possibility that the load coming on top of the nano prevents it camming properly?

[northern yob]

Exactly….. I’m currently running the micro with a neck elastic, as my primary on an oval screwgate. With the nano as back up underneath just on my harness loop, because the nano is smaller it’s not as straightforward to use with a neck elastic as there’s less room to clip into it….(could maybe be remedied with some cord, but I’m conscious of not wanting to mess/modify it) it all runs pretty well especially on multi pitches when there’s lots of rope trailing! You have to help it through for the first few metres!!

The only concern I have is what happens it if you end up on the back up and as you say the primary interferes with it…..I think the nano is less likely to be affected, 2 nano’s is starting to appeal!