[galpinos]

I've long planned to write an instruction manual for non-French climbers in general, and northern European tradsters in particular, on how not to be too slow on bolted multipitch :D. (But then I remember that no one reads anymore, and I don't want to do video shorts.)

I would read this!.......

+1. Would definitely read this!

[northern yob]

 I’ve recently been introduced to fix and follow, it’s super rapid when trad climbing and even more so sport climbing! It also works really with big teams when multi bitching….

It’s what a lot of the yanks are doing these days, some purists take issue with it for the second, but it works really well especially if leading in blocks!

The leader can essentially climb normally belayed by the second. Once at the belay he/she pulls up all the slack and fixes the rope. The second climbs on a traxion (preferably 2) the leader can hang out and rest or using another traxion self belay on the remaining slack they pulled up when fixing. It’s fairly intimidating at first climbing as a second especially as there is just a loose end of rope with no knot in it flapping around in the breeze beneath you ( obvs there’s a limit to how much wind you are comfortable with as the end could potentially snag). Once at the belay the second doesn’t have to manage the rope other than to use a traxion to have a manageable loop with which to belay on, it’s really easy to pull rope through and manage it whilst the end trails down the wall.

It’s also really easy to switch to simu climbing(traxions can be used to protect the second) it’s super fast especially at grades that you are comfortable with, the closer you get to your limit the more intimidating it is, but done correctly it’s fairly safe…… it does feel very weird not tying in as the second! As jiwi says just eliminating rope faff can save huge amounts of time, done properly you can really minimise belay faff literally buying you hours!,

[spidermonkey09]

multi bitching….

Great autocorrect that

[Paul B]

...

So the second isn't tied into the rope? Haven't quite a lot of people ended themselves that way?

This is how Nat and I moved slightly less slowly on aid stuff but using a GG. The advice I read was always for the second to stay tied in and to also tie backup knots or use a cinch that would self feed.

[northern yob]

The second is NOT tied in…..

Not aware of any deaths ( I’m sure there might have been) using fix and follow. Like I said it’s intimidating, I’ve been using a micro with a nano as back up! The nano doesn’t have the release switch so despite being smaller it feels safer to me as you can’t release it once it’s on… it’s not much different than jumaring up a rope with regards contingency. I’d say safer as the rope can’t jump out of a traxion unlike a jumar ( I usually have a Binner on my top jumar to protect against this) ultimately moving super fast is never as safe…… climbing is dangerous.

[Paul B]

But what's the benefit of that? A trailing free end rather than a loop? Can't grasp the risk/reward here.

If you look on the rope soloing group which is essentially what both parties are doing, there's been deaths where on TR solo the person hasn't been tied in and devices have jammed or interfered with each other.

Pretty sure McNamara's book (pretty fast isn't he?) advocates being tied in even when jugging.

Agreed, that moving super fast isn't ever going to be safe (anyone for monoing bolt hangers!?!) and given the people you do this shit with we're probably talking about different leagues anyway.

[andy moles]

I get fix and follow if you're switching to or from simul-climbing, but is there any benefit if you're not doing that?

[northern yob]

The reward is no rope to deal with…. Essentially no belay faff.

Tying knots or tying in creates faff, potential snags/loops which would be likely and time consuming.

Do you wanna go fast or not??

Chris Mac’s book is old…. As are me and chris… this is what the kids are doing!! Gear and techniques move on, embrace the new! It works. It’s defo better with a competent team, I’m far from experienced with it…. But having dabbled I can really appreciate the potential. It’s definitely not as safe as traditional pitching but is much faster, it’s also much safer than some of the speed climbing techniques which were being used when I was in the valley lots in 00’s

[northern yob]

I get fix and follow if you're switching to or from simul-climbing, but is there any benefit if you're not doing that?

Not loads but not having to belay… not handling or coiling ropes, you can eat, rest, have your hands free to do anything you wish. Belay can always be kept nice and clean. It’s much more efficient and you feel less worked. Multiply that over 30 pitches and what might seem like a very marginal gain becomes a very significant amount of time and effort

[Muenchener]

I can see that. Just hauling the rope in fast enough if your second is motoring on easy ground prevents you from getting much of a breather (Yes, I do have and use a gigi. Even so)

[spidermonkey09]

Yeah likewise, its mentally challenging as well peering down to see what your partner is doing rather than eating a cereal bar. Think the limiting factor might be partner's willingness to climb on a traxion though!

[northern yob]

Yeah likewise, its mentally challenging as well peering down to see what your partner is doing rather than eating a cereal bar. Think the limiting factor might be partner's willingness to climb on a traxion though!

It’s not quite as bad as it sounds…. It’s definitely not casual, at least not to me yet…. If you do fall/let go seconding, you don’t actually go anywhere which is quite nice…. Especially when the leader is the kinda person who could be doing literally anything whilst belaying😜 the purists in the US take issue with the fact the second can essentially cheat quite easily so it’s a little controversial for first ascents. One of the limiting factors is you can’t easily switch to descent. I’ve been playing around a bit with it with my kids…. It means you can rap down and be next to them whilst they climb, which has obvious benefits when trying to coax them up large cliffs.

[northern yob]

I’ve recently been introduced to fix and follow, it’s super rapid when trad climbing and even more so sport climbing! It also works really with big teams when multi bitching….

It’s what a lot of the yanks are doing these days, some purists take issue with it for the second, but it works really well especially if leading in blocks!

The leader can essentially climb normally belayed by the second. Once at the belay he/she pulls up all the slack and fixes the rope. The second climbs on a traxion (preferably 2) the leader can hang out and rest or using another traxion self belay on the remaining slack they pulled up when fixing. It’s fairly intimidating at first climbing as a second especially as there is just a loose end of rope with no knot in it flapping around in the breeze beneath you ( obvs there’s a limit to how much wind you are comfortable with as the end could potentially snag). Once at the belay the second doesn’t have to manage the rope other than to use a traxion to have a manageable loop with which to belay on, it’s really easy to pull rope through and manage it whilst the end trails down the wall.

It’s also really easy to switch to simu climbing(traxions can be used to protect the second) it’s super fast especially at grades that you are comfortable with, the closer you get to your limit the more intimidating it is, but done correctly it’s fairly safe…… it does feel very weird not tying in as the second! As jiwi says just eliminating rope faff can save huge amounts of time, done properly you can really minimise belay faff literally buying you hours!,

The leader can’t self belay with a traxion…..needs to be a suitable device!! NOT A TRAXION

[andy moles]

I self-top-rope quite a lot on a micro traxion, which is essentially no different, but I do feel much happier with a second device backing it up, preferably on a separate rope (more gear to lug around and faff to set up, but preferable while on the rock to pissing about with backup knots as a redundancy measure). It would definitely take me quite a lot of practice to get comfortable enough with climbing on a single, unprotected, knotless strand of rope 20 pitches off the floor that the energy saved on the belays would outweigh the energy lost to fear! But for people who are less timid than me I can certainly see the attraction.

[Duncan campbell]

Yeah likewise, its mentally challenging as well peering down to see what your partner is doing rather than eating a cereal bar. Think the limiting factor might be partner's willingness to climb on a traxion though!

Mentally challenging how? Or is it obvious and I’m being stupid?

[spidermonkey09]

Maybe just me then! Obviously depends on the pitch but if the second is having any kind of issues on it, needs lowering down etc, can't get gear out, it's not a totally stress free experience I don't think? Maybe I need to relax 

What I'm really getting at is how u can see how it would be very restful to just pull the rope up, clip in hard and then sort yourself out rather than belay.

[Duncan campbell]

Ahhh I see! I was thinking you were on about exposure but thought it must’ve been something else

[MischaHY]

Microtrax isn’t suitable for this application. (I say this having used it a lot). Enough people have died doing this that’s not worth recommending. Yes you could use two devices but realistically the answer is to buy a Taz LOV which is excellent and easily switches to descent mode.

Personally I far prefer simply simul climbing but doing this using a decent rope soloing device is okish. Personally the comfort zone rope soloing and simuling is similar for me so I prefer simuling as it’s less faff.

Recently climbed ‘Plattenzauber’ 6+ 20p 800m in 3:50hrs simul climbing with trax to back up. We linked 10 pitches in a block. Felt fast enough!

[northern yob]

Microtrax isn’t suitable for this application. (I say this having used it a lot). Enough people have died doing this that’s not worth recommending. Yes you could use two devices but realistically the answer is to buy a Taz LOV which is excellent and easily switches to descent mode.

Personally I far prefer simply simul climbing but doing this using a decent rope soloing device is okish. Personally the comfort zone rope soloing and simuling is similar for me so I prefer simuling as it’s less faff.

Recently climbed ‘Plattenzauber’ 6+ 20p 800m in 3:50hrs simul climbing with trax to back up. We linked 10 pitches in a block. Felt fast enough!

Interesting…. What makes you say it’s not suitable for this application? Dave Mac gives a good break down in one of his video’s as to why he doesn’t like the taz lov! He prefers a shunt….!! Which actually makes me shudder! Ultimately I think there are lots of perfectly useable devices for these sort of systems, I like the ability of the taz lov to easily descend! It looks heavy though. There’s a lot of personal preference involved in these things I find traxions really useful things to have on me especially on big walls, they are light, they have progress capture and a basic pulley all extremely useful…. Also I know a lot of very experienced people that use this system so whilst I’m not super experienced with it,I’m confident it’s not shit (it might not be the best)

[Fultonius]

I think we need to be careful here and ensure we're actually talking about the same applications.

As far as I'm aware (having researched, but then not actually tried fix and follow), the main application is one routes that are much harder than you would ever consider simul-climbing.

I.e.hard onsight, one fall type ground.

The two big advantages I'm aware off are - 1. reduced mental and physical load on the leader (gets a break, can eat, drink, figure out the next pitch) and, 2. free's up the leader to haul light pack.

The latter is the bigger on for me on a hard route. I find trying to belay my partner and haul at the same time is quite a logistical and rope management challenge,but at the same time the reduced physical load of not seconding with a heavy pack is definitely worth it.

[Paul B]

Maybe just me then! Obviously depends on the pitch but if the second is having any kind of issues on it, needs lowering down etc, can't get gear out, it's not a totally stress free experience I don't think? Maybe I need to relax 

Wait until their micro-traxion goes through a phantom and then they fall off. This is exactly what happened on the aid bit/bolt ladder of the Grand Wall when we'd taken a very light setup for Nat to jug the pitch and she stood up without thinking. Marital disharmony followed.

I find traxions really useful things to have on me especially on big walls, they are light, they have progress capture and a basic pulley all extremely useful…. Also I know a lot of very experienced people that use this system so whilst I’m not super experienced with it,I’m confident it’s not shit (it might not be the best)

Agreed. My micro-traxion is hands down one of the best bits of kit I've bought and at the time I bought it the other options were HUGE and heavy. The Nano looks like it'd be even better for my previous usage.

The latter is the bigger on for me on a hard route. I find trying to belay my partner and haul at the same time is quite a logistical and rope management challenge,but at the same time the reduced physical load of not seconding with a heavy pack is definitely worth it.

I'm a bit surprised this is a significant issue. You're clearly a far more attentive belayer than me. Guide plate for the second (Reverso 4) and the MT for hauling.

it’s also much safer than some of the speed climbing techniques which were being used when I was in the valley lots in 00’s

I think this is the point. People will each have their level of comfort/speed trade-off which they're happy with. I think mine (call me soft) includes being tied into the free end. Do look at the incidents people have with two devices interfering with each other and check you're comfortable with the arrangement you have.

[MischaHY]

Microtrax isn’t suitable for this application. (I say this having used it a lot). Enough people have died doing this that’s not worth recommending. Yes you could use two devices but realistically the answer is to buy a Taz LOV which is excellent and easily switches to descent mode.

Personally I far prefer simply simul climbing but doing this using a decent rope soloing device is okish. Personally the comfort zone rope soloing and simuling is similar for me so I prefer simuling as it’s less faff.

Recently climbed ‘Plattenzauber’ 6+ 20p 800m in 3:50hrs simul climbing with trax to back up. We linked 10 pitches in a block. Felt fast enough!

Interesting…. What makes you say it’s not suitable for this application? Dave Mac gives a good break down in one of his video’s as to why he doesn’t like the taz lov! He prefers a shunt….!! Which actually makes me shudder! Ultimately I think there are lots of perfectly useable devices for these sort of systems, I like the ability of the taz lov to easily descend! It looks heavy though. There’s a lot of personal preference involved in these things I find traxions really useful things to have on me especially on big walls, they are light, they have progress capture and a basic pulley all extremely useful…. Also I know a lot of very experienced people that use this system so whilst I’m not super experienced with it,I’m confident it’s not shit (it might not be the best)

I’m understanding correctly that we’re talking about short fixing and seconding on a trax? I’ve used a trax a fair bit for rope soloing but had a few occasions where it’s simply disengaged randomly. Nanotrax obviously better for this but it’s worth bearing in mind that the sheath shearing load of a trax is around 1.7kn (from memory) which is shockingly easy to reach if not suspending from chest. A taz has none of these issues and grabs very reliably even on skinny rope.

That being said I’m probably being a bit negative because I don’t really see the speed advantage if I’m honest. Maybe others are far happier rope soloing harder than I am? LRS, that is, not TRS. Think I’d rather just simul.

[andy moles]

I’m understanding correctly that we’re talking about short fixing and seconding on a trax? I’ve used a trax a fair bit for rope soloing but had a few occasions where it’s simply disengaged randomly.

How does that happen more than once in a blue moon? I've always worried about it, but thought it was very unlikely in practice. I also reassured myself that if you whip rope through fast it will re-engage (it certainly does in a dry run on the floor) but I didn't know that the sheath shearing load is only 1.7kN (that must vary a lot with different sheaths...?)

Wait until their micro-traxion goes through a phantom and then they fall off. This is exactly what happened on the aid bit/bolt ladder of the Grand Wall when we'd taken a very light setup for Nat to jug the pitch and she stood up without thinking. Marital disharmony followed.

Could you explain this scenario Paul, I can't picture it (basically because I don't know what you mean by 'goes through a phantom'...)

Guide plate for the second (Reverso 4) and the MT for hauling.

This...I don't find it too difficult to manage and keep the stance tidy, can probably manage to eat and drink as long as it's not too easy a pitch, though there's no question it's not akin to having a couple of minutes chilling hands-free.

[northern yob]

Microtrax isn’t suitable for this application. (I say this having used it a lot). Enough people have died doing this that’s not worth recommending. Yes you could use two devices but realistically the answer is to buy a Taz LOV which is excellent and easily switches to descent mode.

Personally I far prefer simply simul climbing but doing this using a decent rope soloing device is okish. Personally the comfort zone rope soloing and simuling is similar for me so I prefer simuling as it’s less faff.

Recently climbed ‘Plattenzauber’ 6+ 20p 800m in 3:50hrs simul climbing with trax to back up. We linked 10 pitches in a block. Felt fast enough!

Interesting…. What makes you say it’s not suitable for this application? Dave Mac gives a good break down in one of his video’s as to why he doesn’t like the taz lov! He prefers a shunt….!! Which actually makes me shudder! Ultimately I think there are lots of perfectly useable devices for these sort of systems, I like the ability of the taz lov to easily descend! It looks heavy though. There’s a lot of personal preference involved in these things I find traxions really useful things to have on me especially on big walls, they are light, they have progress capture and a basic pulley all extremely useful…. Also I know a lot of very experienced people that use this system so whilst I’m not super experienced with it,I’m confident it’s not shit (it might not be the best)

I’m understanding correctly that we’re talking about short fixing and seconding on a trax? I’ve used a trax a fair bit for rope soloing but had a few occasions where it’s simply disengaged randomly. Nanotrax obviously better for this but it’s worth bearing in mind that the sheath shearing load of a trax is around 1.7kn (from memory) which is shockingly easy to reach if not suspending from chest. A taz has none of these issues and grabs very reliably even on skinny rope.

That being said I’m probably being a bit negative because I don’t really see the speed advantage if I’m honest. Maybe others are far happier rope soloing harder than I am? LRS, that is, not TRS. Think I’d rather just simul.

Yeah, we are on the same page re system!! I’m always more than happy to take on board other peoples views with this stuff, it’s interesting and ultimately leads to refinement and hopefully a long and happy life😜

Like I said I’ve been running a nano as my back up, as I’m aware of the disengagement risk with the micro. I know some people that have modified the release switch on the micro and just run the one device….. not really for me.

I’m aware of the cross loading biner risk and use biners which I think are less likely to do this, my primary device (micro)is worn on my harness loop with a neck elastic and my secondary (nano) is below it also on the loop. In theory this keeps them apart stopping them interfering with each other…..

And I’ve been using it with the Edelrid Swift protect ropes in the mountains(deserts) which I’m hoping will help re shearing load although I’m not aware of the numbers…. I’ve defo been slack in the uk and nowhere near as diligent with which rope I’m using!!

There’s no speed advantage per se it’s just much safer than simul climbing….. on the right terrain with the right people you can simul pretty safely fairly hard, using traxions to protect the second(and the leader by default) on cruxy sections however falling still isn’t very appealing! With fix and follow you can basically fall as much as you like with no implications unless you hit one of the system doom scenario’s which despite being very rare are possible. I definitely think most people are happier rope soloing than simul climbing near their limit!!

You should watch Dave macs video, he has some legitimate criticisms of the taz lov, mostly revolving around it not engaging in various scenario’s.

[Paul B]

Sorry, to clarify you're recommending the advice of someone who has decided on a Shunt?   

Could you explain this scenario Paul, I can't picture it (basically because I don't know what you mean by 'goes through a phantom'...)

This wasn't an entirely serious comment and is more a punter move on our part; she was jugging using a MT as a lightweight system and didn't account for rope stretch when it was unloaded the result of which was the MT to be dragged through the biner (a DMM Phantom, Fiend loves them) and for whatever reason it jammed quite badly. I'd suggested this would happen so when it did, I wasn't perhaps as sympathetic as I should've been (pretty sure I behaved like an idiot) etc. I think the combination of steepness, tiredness and a single biner on the bolt didn't help.

Like I said I’ve been running a nano as my back up, as I’m aware of the disengagement risk with the micro. I know some people that have modified the release switch on the micro and just run the one device….. not really for me.

I'm pretty sure I've seen reports of them jamming open on slings/t-shirts too.

[andy moles]

I think Robbie Phillips broke a micro traxion by getting a sling caught in it or something like that, but Google isn't answering my query.

[csl]

There is a very comprehensive video on rope soloing with progress capture pulleys from How Not 2 - the guest is a guy called Brent who is a bit of a rope solo expert and now has a company (avant) selling rope solo gear. Worth a watch since he discusses most of these risks in detail.

https://youtu.be/DHgozZxLbyo?si=ktYVE6ISTlW6NFWg

Edit: maybe worth a topic split at this point?

[northern yob]

Sorry, to clarify you're recommending the advice of someone who has decided on a Shunt?   

🤣 I know right…. In all seriousness it does highlight personal preference etc! Dave’s no mug and I imagine has more rope solo time than anyone out there. I don’t know the device so I can’t criticise, it was more highlighting nothing is perfect…. And also it’s good to be aware, like I said I’m more than happy for people to rip my system to shreds, I’d rather be alive and wrong.

I’ve read reports of ropes snapping…. Doesn’t mean I don’t use them! Most accidents are user error! Always be diligent. Like I said climbing is dangerous, Dave’s still alive and he uses a shunt!!

Yes topic split

[Paul B]

On another note, sadly Gilles Gautier (66) has died. I knew him through visiting Tsaranoro and he's put an awful lot of effort into that valley through the years.

[Fultonius]

The latter is the bigger on for me on a hard route. I find trying to belay my partner and haul at the same time is quite a logistical and rope management challenge,but at the same time the reduced physical load of not seconding with a heavy pack is definitely worth it.

I'm a bit surprised this is a significant issue. You're clearly a far more attentive belayer than me. Guide plate for the second (Reverso 4) and the MT for hauling.

It's not so much a "significant" issue, as an area where some gains and energy saving can be made - but I agree it's marginal if a gain at all (having only considered it and not actually tested it). Clearly my partners weren't convinced either as I did suggest testing it on a warm up route but we never did.

On my last longer trip doing bigger routes in the Dolomites, we ended up defaulting to belaying the second (on most pitches except cruxes) using a micro trax, and hauling on a nano. Seemed to slightly reduce belaying effort and felt safe enough.

[jwi]

It is easy to belay and haul at the same time on bolted multipitch routes. Even my small-ish wife can easily do it.

First: the bag must be light, so no stupid shit in the bag, just bars&gels, water, sweater+lighweight windjacket and lightweight shoes.

Second: belay the 2nd on a directional pulley. Miles better then a reverso. (Even if you climb with twins: in that case you need three directional pulleys.)

Put in the directional pulleys both on the tagline and the leadline at the same time. It is much faster to pull up rope for stacking through a directional pulley than without.

If belaying from a ledge the quickest is to pull both ropes at the same time, pull the haulbag 5 ahead then pull in both in a single heap as when belaying a second on twins. But especially if the pitch is hard so that the 2nd is slow it is also easy to put the two ropes in different heaps.

If belaying on a hanging belay, take a wide stance and stack the haul line on one foot and the lead line on the other foot. When the haulbag has arrived to the belay you can transfer the haul line to a shoulder-length sling if that is more comfortable.

Petzl's kevlar haul line is really slick and rarely get caught in stuff, so if the rock is clean below the belay, there is little wind etc. you can make really big loops.

If the bag is so heavy that you need a tiblock and a footloop to help hauling, you should probably bring less water, but it is usually still quite manageable if belaying the  second with a directional pulley.

If the pitch ends with a traverse, transfer the 2nd to a reverso before they unclip the last quickdraw.

[Paul B]

Second: belay the 2nd on a directional pulley. Miles better then a reverso. (Even if you climb with twins: in that case you need three directional pulleys.)

Which device do you use? Kong Italy make a whole host of kit that you don't see in use very often but having looked at this thread I noticed they have some new stuff that would've made life easier in the past.

[jwi]

Second: belay the 2nd on a directional pulley. Miles better then a reverso. (Even if you climb with twins: in that case you need three directional pulleys.)

Which device do you use? Kong Italy make a whole host of kit that you don't see in use very often but having looked at this thread I noticed they have some new stuff that would've made life easier in the past.

I have a micro- and a nano- traxion. I prefer the nano. I will buy one more nano if I do something that requires hauling + leading on doubles, like stuff in Ordesa or some of the routes on Peña Montanesa etc.

[spidermonkey09]

Please excuse the idiot question jwi, but when you say belay the second on the nano traxion, is this in exactly the same way you would with a grigri, eg clipped directly to anchor, pull rope through, autolock engages if second falls?

[jwi]

Yes. Just clip it in one of the bolts in the belay. Petzl has some stuff on their web.

[andy moles]

I think Robbie Phillips broke a micro traxion by getting a sling caught in it or something like that, but Google isn't answering my query.

Just to clarify this, I asked Robbie about it and he doesn't actually know when or how the failure occurred. He was using it to ascend a fixed rope and realised the cam was broken and not engaging.

[Paul B]

I haven't broken one but I did find it disengaged and have no explanation for it being so. I was basically soloing at a local quarry doing lots of mileage before a trip; up, run round to the bottom, repeat etc. I wasn't using two devices and was treating the MT as the backup as it was pretty easy ground.

[andy moles]

Yes. Just clip it in one of the bolts in the belay. Petzl has some stuff on their web.

https://m.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-the-second-with-a-MICRO-TRAXION--beware-of-any-fall?ProductName=NANO-TRAXION

Basically, don't allow any slack and don't do it on a shagged rope.

Also, know what you're going to do in the event of having to lower your second for some reason.

[petejh]

I've used micro traxion or grigri a lot for rope-soloing (without backup) while equipping new routes. The micro traxion has disengaged once, versus the grigri never (obvs - there's no catch). Which is one time too many. I've also heard too many other anecdotes (3 more in this thread...) saying the same thing about the micro-traxion disengaging unnoticed.

If you spend enough hours using a device the odds increase of experiencing one of its potential failures. So I stopped using the MT as that one failure in less #hrs than the grigri's no failures made it too risky. Would like to get a Taz Lov to replace the grigri.

Haven't used the MT for belaying seconds but I happily would on routes where it was labour-saving enough to be worthwhile. You have more control over and focus on the device while belaying than when rope-soloing or ascending, when your focus is distracted by climbing/moving.

[MischaHY]

This device is looking to have the potential to be useful in this context. Let’s see if it gets through certification intact. Autolock on 5.5mm is certainly impressive.

https://alternativecurrent.it/en/sulu/

[northern yob]

I've used micro traxion or grigri a lot for rope-soloing (without backup) while equipping new routes. The micro traxion has disengaged once, versus the grigri never (obvs - there's no catch). Which is one time too many. I've also heard too many other anecdotes (3 more in this thread...) saying the same thing about the micro-traxion disengaging unnoticed.

If you spend enough hours using a device the odds increase of experiencing one of its potential failures. So I stopped using the MT as that one failure in less #hrs than the grigri's no failures made it too risky. Would like to get a Taz Lov to replace the grigri.

Haven't used the MT for belaying seconds but I happily would on routes where it was labour-saving enough to be worthwhile. You have more control over and focus on the device while belaying than when rope-soloing or ascending, when your focus is distracted by climbing/moving.

Definitely food for thought…. I’ve not used the micro traxion much but have also experienced a mysterious disengagement….. it was quite early on in my experience of using it, there’s a possibility I never engaged it! The only thing I’m sure of is it wasn’t engaged at the top!! I did have a nano back up so wasn’t overly concerned. That’s exactly why I was running the back up… gonna look at the petzl website and consider possibly using two nano’s…. A gri gri is great for working hard things…. If you can climb it on a gri gri you can lead it…. The taking in is a reasonable substitute for placing gear.
Back in the day we worked a route on El cap with gri gri’s we had the whole route fixed(very bad style) and rocked up at the bottom with shoes, chalk a gri gri each and a jumar and foot loop each, it made for a super fun day, and was a highly efficient way of working the route! The total anti style to what we had initially tried to do…..

I’m definitely open to other devices, as I will defo be using fix and follow and rope soloing in the future.

[remus]

Punter question incoming, but why use a micro traxion over a nano traxion? It sounds like the nano is less likely to accidentally disengage.

[jwi]

Punter question incoming, but why use a micro traxion over a nano traxion? It sounds like the nano is less likely to accidentally disengage.

Speculation: Nano is newer, so people are more likely to own a micro-traxion?

When I bought the micro, the nano did not yet exist, but for what I use it for (protecting second and hauling) the nano just makes more sense. It is easy to disengage the teeth by just pulling on the cam directly when needed.

[Paul B]

Same. The MT was brand new and even the Edelrid equivalent came a fair bit later? That uses a different mechanism to disengage the cam.

[northern yob]

I’m not aware of the numbers….. but the micro is slightly bigger which in my tiny brain = stronger. I have 2 micro’s and one nano, seems like most people use the micro for rope solo….. but I’m not sure why, I presume they have tiny brains like me. Will probably get another nano at some point just because, the micro nano combo works pretty well and seems to have most things covered, at least in my tiny brain.

[csl]

I’m not aware of the numbers….. but the micro is slightly bigger which in my tiny brain = stronger. I have 2 micro’s and one nano, seems like most people use the micro for rope solo….. but I’m not sure why, I presume they have tiny brains like me. Will probably get another nano at some point just because, the micro nano combo works pretty well and seems to have most things covered, at least in my tiny brain.

Micro self-feeds better than a nano so you can have less weight on the rope below you - I only have one of each so use the same combo as you.

[duncan]

I don't do a huge amount of top-rope soloing but I've played with a few devices over the years including the Taz Lov, microtrax, grigri, shunt, petzl handled ascender, and knots in the rope.

The Taz Lov is the least bad of all of these for my purposes: single-pitch TR soloing on vertical-ish routes. It feeds as well as a microtrax. and locks nearly as well as a grigri. Being able to switch from self-belaying to abseiling without having to change devices is great. Of course you can do this with a grigri too but I could never get a grigri to feed to my satisfaction. Less of an issue if you just want to work a move or two of course; I can't imagine working El Cap. this way like Mr Yob!

The Taz Lov sometimes slipped a little on my shiny new 10.5mm semi-static (disconcerting to start with but it always grabed after 6-8"), is heavy, and is costly. I still like to have a back-up on a second rope when single-pitch TR soloing but I am old and timid.

For the same reasons I still need convincing that fix-and-follow is truly The Better Way although it's certainly intriguing. 

 

[Paul B]

Of course you can do this with a grigri too but I could never get a grigri to feed to my satisfaction. Less of an issue if you just want to work a move or two of course; I can't imagine working El Cap. this way like Mr Yob!

Original GG with the 'death-mod' (removal of that triangular bit of metal) and an (un)suitably thin rope feeds just fine but they are a bit 'wiggy' (I've been pretty happy using mine for TR solo, with a backup knot, but it's been retired for a long time for any lead stuff). Looking back, it's pretty amusing that I bought a 20 quid GG from UKC and borrowed my neighbour's grinder to modify it aged 16 ish.

...and ditto.

[andy moles]

Micro self-feeds better than a nano so you can have less weight on the rope below you - I only have one of each so use the same combo as you.

My reason for having a micro rather than nano is exactly the same as others above, that the nano hasn't been around very long, but having read all these cases of unexplained disengagements I'm convinced I need a nano, and to put up with it not following as readily.

I'm guessing if you're using both you have the upper device pulled higher with a bit of elastic around your neck or something?

Given the micro has less resistance but also a slight risk of disengaging, is there a better way round to have them? I'm trying to picture what could potentially happen if the micro is on top and disengages when you fall - device meets device, is there a possibility that the load coming on top of the nano prevents it camming properly?

[northern yob]

Exactly….. I’m currently running the micro with a neck elastic, as my primary on an oval screwgate. With the nano as back up underneath just on my harness loop, because the nano is smaller it’s not as straightforward to use with a neck elastic as there’s less room to clip into it….(could maybe be remedied with some cord, but I’m conscious of not wanting to mess/modify it) it all runs pretty well especially on multi pitches when there’s lots of rope trailing! You have to help it through for the first few metres!!

The only concern I have is what happens it if you end up on the back up and as you say the primary interferes with it…..I think the nano is less likely to be affected, 2 nano’s is starting to appeal!

[dunnyg]

My 2p, I used a shunt with a sling as a chest harness, with mico traction as back up. This is for single pitch stuff. Sometimes I've tied a knot just above the deck. In my mind they both have failure mechanisms but the chance of both at once seems to be fairly minute when working vertish stuff. I got a shunt because that's what someone else used, used it once and didn't trust it. I got a micro traction for non climbing stuff and then thought it was worth a bash. I'm pretty happy with both on one rope.

I've also just used a grigri with a knot every once in a while.

I've not done loads of top rope soloing though. Usually a couple of sessions a year.

[galpinos]

For those using fix and follow, don't you need enough weight on the rope to get the devices to run?

I think I would find it all a bit "airy" on a single dynamic rope multiple pitches up.....