[galpinos]

I've long planned to write an instruction manual for non-French climbers in general, and northern European tradsters in particular, on how not to be too slow on bolted multipitch :D. (But then I remember that no one reads anymore, and I don't want to do video shorts.)

I would read this!.......

+1. Would definitely read this!

[northern yob]

 I’ve recently been introduced to fix and follow, it’s super rapid when trad climbing and even more so sport climbing! It also works really with big teams when multi bitching….

It’s what a lot of the yanks are doing these days, some purists take issue with it for the second, but it works really well especially if leading in blocks!

The leader can essentially climb normally belayed by the second. Once at the belay he/she pulls up all the slack and fixes the rope. The second climbs on a traxion (preferably 2) the leader can hang out and rest or using another traxion self belay on the remaining slack they pulled up when fixing. It’s fairly intimidating at first climbing as a second especially as there is just a loose end of rope with no knot in it flapping around in the breeze beneath you ( obvs there’s a limit to how much wind you are comfortable with as the end could potentially snag). Once at the belay the second doesn’t have to manage the rope other than to use a traxion to have a manageable loop with which to belay on, it’s really easy to pull rope through and manage it whilst the end trails down the wall.

It’s also really easy to switch to simu climbing(traxions can be used to protect the second) it’s super fast especially at grades that you are comfortable with, the closer you get to your limit the more intimidating it is, but done correctly it’s fairly safe…… it does feel very weird not tying in as the second! As jiwi says just eliminating rope faff can save huge amounts of time, done properly you can really minimise belay faff literally buying you hours!,

[spidermonkey09]

multi bitching….

Great autocorrect that

[Paul B]

...

So the second isn't tied into the rope? Haven't quite a lot of people ended themselves that way?

This is how Nat and I moved slightly less slowly on aid stuff but using a GG. The advice I read was always for the second to stay tied in and to also tie backup knots or use a cinch that would self feed.

[northern yob]

The second is NOT tied in…..

Not aware of any deaths ( I’m sure there might have been) using fix and follow. Like I said it’s intimidating, I’ve been using a micro with a nano as back up! The nano doesn’t have the release switch so despite being smaller it feels safer to me as you can’t release it once it’s on… it’s not much different than jumaring up a rope with regards contingency. I’d say safer as the rope can’t jump out of a traxion unlike a jumar ( I usually have a Binner on my top jumar to protect against this) ultimately moving super fast is never as safe…… climbing is dangerous.

[Paul B]

But what's the benefit of that? A trailing free end rather than a loop? Can't grasp the risk/reward here.

If you look on the rope soloing group which is essentially what both parties are doing, there's been deaths where on TR solo the person hasn't been tied in and devices have jammed or interfered with each other.

Pretty sure McNamara's book (pretty fast isn't he?) advocates being tied in even when jugging.

Agreed, that moving super fast isn't ever going to be safe (anyone for monoing bolt hangers!?!) and given the people you do this shit with we're probably talking about different leagues anyway.

[andy moles]

I get fix and follow if you're switching to or from simul-climbing, but is there any benefit if you're not doing that?

[northern yob]

The reward is no rope to deal with…. Essentially no belay faff.

Tying knots or tying in creates faff, potential snags/loops which would be likely and time consuming.

Do you wanna go fast or not??

Chris Mac’s book is old…. As are me and chris… this is what the kids are doing!! Gear and techniques move on, embrace the new! It works. It’s defo better with a competent team, I’m far from experienced with it…. But having dabbled I can really appreciate the potential. It’s definitely not as safe as traditional pitching but is much faster, it’s also much safer than some of the speed climbing techniques which were being used when I was in the valley lots in 00’s

[northern yob]

I get fix and follow if you're switching to or from simul-climbing, but is there any benefit if you're not doing that?

Not loads but not having to belay… not handling or coiling ropes, you can eat, rest, have your hands free to do anything you wish. Belay can always be kept nice and clean. It’s much more efficient and you feel less worked. Multiply that over 30 pitches and what might seem like a very marginal gain becomes a very significant amount of time and effort

[Muenchener]

I can see that. Just hauling the rope in fast enough if your second is motoring on easy ground prevents you from getting much of a breather (Yes, I do have and use a gigi. Even so)

[spidermonkey09]

Yeah likewise, its mentally challenging as well peering down to see what your partner is doing rather than eating a cereal bar. Think the limiting factor might be partner's willingness to climb on a traxion though!

[northern yob]

Yeah likewise, its mentally challenging as well peering down to see what your partner is doing rather than eating a cereal bar. Think the limiting factor might be partner's willingness to climb on a traxion though!

It’s not quite as bad as it sounds…. It’s definitely not casual, at least not to me yet…. If you do fall/let go seconding, you don’t actually go anywhere which is quite nice…. Especially when the leader is the kinda person who could be doing literally anything whilst belaying😜 the purists in the US take issue with the fact the second can essentially cheat quite easily so it’s a little controversial for first ascents. One of the limiting factors is you can’t easily switch to descent. I’ve been playing around a bit with it with my kids…. It means you can rap down and be next to them whilst they climb, which has obvious benefits when trying to coax them up large cliffs.

[northern yob]

I’ve recently been introduced to fix and follow, it’s super rapid when trad climbing and even more so sport climbing! It also works really with big teams when multi bitching….

It’s what a lot of the yanks are doing these days, some purists take issue with it for the second, but it works really well especially if leading in blocks!

The leader can essentially climb normally belayed by the second. Once at the belay he/she pulls up all the slack and fixes the rope. The second climbs on a traxion (preferably 2) the leader can hang out and rest or using another traxion self belay on the remaining slack they pulled up when fixing. It’s fairly intimidating at first climbing as a second especially as there is just a loose end of rope with no knot in it flapping around in the breeze beneath you ( obvs there’s a limit to how much wind you are comfortable with as the end could potentially snag). Once at the belay the second doesn’t have to manage the rope other than to use a traxion to have a manageable loop with which to belay on, it’s really easy to pull rope through and manage it whilst the end trails down the wall.

It’s also really easy to switch to simu climbing(traxions can be used to protect the second) it’s super fast especially at grades that you are comfortable with, the closer you get to your limit the more intimidating it is, but done correctly it’s fairly safe…… it does feel very weird not tying in as the second! As jiwi says just eliminating rope faff can save huge amounts of time, done properly you can really minimise belay faff literally buying you hours!,

The leader can’t self belay with a traxion…..needs to be a suitable device!! NOT A TRAXION

[andy moles]

I self-top-rope quite a lot on a micro traxion, which is essentially no different, but I do feel much happier with a second device backing it up, preferably on a separate rope (more gear to lug around and faff to set up, but preferable while on the rock to pissing about with backup knots as a redundancy measure). It would definitely take me quite a lot of practice to get comfortable enough with climbing on a single, unprotected, knotless strand of rope 20 pitches off the floor that the energy saved on the belays would outweigh the energy lost to fear! But for people who are less timid than me I can certainly see the attraction.

[Duncan campbell]

Yeah likewise, its mentally challenging as well peering down to see what your partner is doing rather than eating a cereal bar. Think the limiting factor might be partner's willingness to climb on a traxion though!

Mentally challenging how? Or is it obvious and I’m being stupid?

[spidermonkey09]

Maybe just me then! Obviously depends on the pitch but if the second is having any kind of issues on it, needs lowering down etc, can't get gear out, it's not a totally stress free experience I don't think? Maybe I need to relax 

What I'm really getting at is how u can see how it would be very restful to just pull the rope up, clip in hard and then sort yourself out rather than belay.

[Duncan campbell]

Ahhh I see! I was thinking you were on about exposure but thought it must’ve been something else

[MischaHY]

Microtrax isn’t suitable for this application. (I say this having used it a lot). Enough people have died doing this that’s not worth recommending. Yes you could use two devices but realistically the answer is to buy a Taz LOV which is excellent and easily switches to descent mode.

Personally I far prefer simply simul climbing but doing this using a decent rope soloing device is okish. Personally the comfort zone rope soloing and simuling is similar for me so I prefer simuling as it’s less faff.

Recently climbed ‘Plattenzauber’ 6+ 20p 800m in 3:50hrs simul climbing with trax to back up. We linked 10 pitches in a block. Felt fast enough!

[northern yob]

Microtrax isn’t suitable for this application. (I say this having used it a lot). Enough people have died doing this that’s not worth recommending. Yes you could use two devices but realistically the answer is to buy a Taz LOV which is excellent and easily switches to descent mode.

Personally I far prefer simply simul climbing but doing this using a decent rope soloing device is okish. Personally the comfort zone rope soloing and simuling is similar for me so I prefer simuling as it’s less faff.

Recently climbed ‘Plattenzauber’ 6+ 20p 800m in 3:50hrs simul climbing with trax to back up. We linked 10 pitches in a block. Felt fast enough!

Interesting…. What makes you say it’s not suitable for this application? Dave Mac gives a good break down in one of his video’s as to why he doesn’t like the taz lov! He prefers a shunt….!! Which actually makes me shudder! Ultimately I think there are lots of perfectly useable devices for these sort of systems, I like the ability of the taz lov to easily descend! It looks heavy though. There’s a lot of personal preference involved in these things I find traxions really useful things to have on me especially on big walls, they are light, they have progress capture and a basic pulley all extremely useful…. Also I know a lot of very experienced people that use this system so whilst I’m not super experienced with it,I’m confident it’s not shit (it might not be the best)

[Fultonius]

I think we need to be careful here and ensure we're actually talking about the same applications.

As far as I'm aware (having researched, but then not actually tried fix and follow), the main application is one routes that are much harder than you would ever consider simul-climbing.

I.e.hard onsight, one fall type ground.

The two big advantages I'm aware off are - 1. reduced mental and physical load on the leader (gets a break, can eat, drink, figure out the next pitch) and, 2. free's up the leader to haul light pack.

The latter is the bigger on for me on a hard route. I find trying to belay my partner and haul at the same time is quite a logistical and rope management challenge,but at the same time the reduced physical load of not seconding with a heavy pack is definitely worth it.

[Paul B]

Maybe just me then! Obviously depends on the pitch but if the second is having any kind of issues on it, needs lowering down etc, can't get gear out, it's not a totally stress free experience I don't think? Maybe I need to relax 

Wait until their micro-traxion goes through a phantom and then they fall off. This is exactly what happened on the aid bit/bolt ladder of the Grand Wall when we'd taken a very light setup for Nat to jug the pitch and she stood up without thinking. Marital disharmony followed.

I find traxions really useful things to have on me especially on big walls, they are light, they have progress capture and a basic pulley all extremely useful…. Also I know a lot of very experienced people that use this system so whilst I’m not super experienced with it,I’m confident it’s not shit (it might not be the best)

Agreed. My micro-traxion is hands down one of the best bits of kit I've bought and at the time I bought it the other options were HUGE and heavy. The Nano looks like it'd be even better for my previous usage.

The latter is the bigger on for me on a hard route. I find trying to belay my partner and haul at the same time is quite a logistical and rope management challenge,but at the same time the reduced physical load of not seconding with a heavy pack is definitely worth it.

I'm a bit surprised this is a significant issue. You're clearly a far more attentive belayer than me. Guide plate for the second (Reverso 4) and the MT for hauling.

it’s also much safer than some of the speed climbing techniques which were being used when I was in the valley lots in 00’s

I think this is the point. People will each have their level of comfort/speed trade-off which they're happy with. I think mine (call me soft) includes being tied into the free end. Do look at the incidents people have with two devices interfering with each other and check you're comfortable with the arrangement you have.

[MischaHY]

Microtrax isn’t suitable for this application. (I say this having used it a lot). Enough people have died doing this that’s not worth recommending. Yes you could use two devices but realistically the answer is to buy a Taz LOV which is excellent and easily switches to descent mode.

Personally I far prefer simply simul climbing but doing this using a decent rope soloing device is okish. Personally the comfort zone rope soloing and simuling is similar for me so I prefer simuling as it’s less faff.

Recently climbed ‘Plattenzauber’ 6+ 20p 800m in 3:50hrs simul climbing with trax to back up. We linked 10 pitches in a block. Felt fast enough!

Interesting…. What makes you say it’s not suitable for this application? Dave Mac gives a good break down in one of his video’s as to why he doesn’t like the taz lov! He prefers a shunt….!! Which actually makes me shudder! Ultimately I think there are lots of perfectly useable devices for these sort of systems, I like the ability of the taz lov to easily descend! It looks heavy though. There’s a lot of personal preference involved in these things I find traxions really useful things to have on me especially on big walls, they are light, they have progress capture and a basic pulley all extremely useful…. Also I know a lot of very experienced people that use this system so whilst I’m not super experienced with it,I’m confident it’s not shit (it might not be the best)

I’m understanding correctly that we’re talking about short fixing and seconding on a trax? I’ve used a trax a fair bit for rope soloing but had a few occasions where it’s simply disengaged randomly. Nanotrax obviously better for this but it’s worth bearing in mind that the sheath shearing load of a trax is around 1.7kn (from memory) which is shockingly easy to reach if not suspending from chest. A taz has none of these issues and grabs very reliably even on skinny rope.

That being said I’m probably being a bit negative because I don’t really see the speed advantage if I’m honest. Maybe others are far happier rope soloing harder than I am? LRS, that is, not TRS. Think I’d rather just simul.

[andy moles]

I’m understanding correctly that we’re talking about short fixing and seconding on a trax? I’ve used a trax a fair bit for rope soloing but had a few occasions where it’s simply disengaged randomly.

How does that happen more than once in a blue moon? I've always worried about it, but thought it was very unlikely in practice. I also reassured myself that if you whip rope through fast it will re-engage (it certainly does in a dry run on the floor) but I didn't know that the sheath shearing load is only 1.7kN (that must vary a lot with different sheaths...?)

Wait until their micro-traxion goes through a phantom and then they fall off. This is exactly what happened on the aid bit/bolt ladder of the Grand Wall when we'd taken a very light setup for Nat to jug the pitch and she stood up without thinking. Marital disharmony followed.

Could you explain this scenario Paul, I can't picture it (basically because I don't know what you mean by 'goes through a phantom'...)

Guide plate for the second (Reverso 4) and the MT for hauling.

This...I don't find it too difficult to manage and keep the stance tidy, can probably manage to eat and drink as long as it's not too easy a pitch, though there's no question it's not akin to having a couple of minutes chilling hands-free.

[northern yob]

Microtrax isn’t suitable for this application. (I say this having used it a lot). Enough people have died doing this that’s not worth recommending. Yes you could use two devices but realistically the answer is to buy a Taz LOV which is excellent and easily switches to descent mode.

Personally I far prefer simply simul climbing but doing this using a decent rope soloing device is okish. Personally the comfort zone rope soloing and simuling is similar for me so I prefer simuling as it’s less faff.

Recently climbed ‘Plattenzauber’ 6+ 20p 800m in 3:50hrs simul climbing with trax to back up. We linked 10 pitches in a block. Felt fast enough!

Interesting…. What makes you say it’s not suitable for this application? Dave Mac gives a good break down in one of his video’s as to why he doesn’t like the taz lov! He prefers a shunt….!! Which actually makes me shudder! Ultimately I think there are lots of perfectly useable devices for these sort of systems, I like the ability of the taz lov to easily descend! It looks heavy though. There’s a lot of personal preference involved in these things I find traxions really useful things to have on me especially on big walls, they are light, they have progress capture and a basic pulley all extremely useful…. Also I know a lot of very experienced people that use this system so whilst I’m not super experienced with it,I’m confident it’s not shit (it might not be the best)

I’m understanding correctly that we’re talking about short fixing and seconding on a trax? I’ve used a trax a fair bit for rope soloing but had a few occasions where it’s simply disengaged randomly. Nanotrax obviously better for this but it’s worth bearing in mind that the sheath shearing load of a trax is around 1.7kn (from memory) which is shockingly easy to reach if not suspending from chest. A taz has none of these issues and grabs very reliably even on skinny rope.

That being said I’m probably being a bit negative because I don’t really see the speed advantage if I’m honest. Maybe others are far happier rope soloing harder than I am? LRS, that is, not TRS. Think I’d rather just simul.

Yeah, we are on the same page re system!! I’m always more than happy to take on board other peoples views with this stuff, it’s interesting and ultimately leads to refinement and hopefully a long and happy life😜

Like I said I’ve been running a nano as my back up, as I’m aware of the disengagement risk with the micro. I know some people that have modified the release switch on the micro and just run the one device….. not really for me.

I’m aware of the cross loading biner risk and use biners which I think are less likely to do this, my primary device (micro)is worn on my harness loop with a neck elastic and my secondary (nano) is below it also on the loop. In theory this keeps them apart stopping them interfering with each other…..

And I’ve been using it with the Edelrid Swift protect ropes in the mountains(deserts) which I’m hoping will help re shearing load although I’m not aware of the numbers…. I’ve defo been slack in the uk and nowhere near as diligent with which rope I’m using!!

There’s no speed advantage per se it’s just much safer than simul climbing….. on the right terrain with the right people you can simul pretty safely fairly hard, using traxions to protect the second(and the leader by default) on cruxy sections however falling still isn’t very appealing! With fix and follow you can basically fall as much as you like with no implications unless you hit one of the system doom scenario’s which despite being very rare are possible. I definitely think most people are happier rope soloing than simul climbing near their limit!!

You should watch Dave macs video, he has some legitimate criticisms of the taz lov, mostly revolving around it not engaging in various scenario’s.

[Paul B]

Sorry, to clarify you're recommending the advice of someone who has decided on a Shunt?   

Could you explain this scenario Paul, I can't picture it (basically because I don't know what you mean by 'goes through a phantom'...)

This wasn't an entirely serious comment and is more a punter move on our part; she was jugging using a MT as a lightweight system and didn't account for rope stretch when it was unloaded the result of which was the MT to be dragged through the biner (a DMM Phantom, Fiend loves them) and for whatever reason it jammed quite badly. I'd suggested this would happen so when it did, I wasn't perhaps as sympathetic as I should've been (pretty sure I behaved like an idiot) etc. I think the combination of steepness, tiredness and a single biner on the bolt didn't help.

Like I said I’ve been running a nano as my back up, as I’m aware of the disengagement risk with the micro. I know some people that have modified the release switch on the micro and just run the one device….. not really for me.

I'm pretty sure I've seen reports of them jamming open on slings/t-shirts too.