[Aussiegav]

Thanks everyone who took time out to watch the video. I had a meeting with Tony. It did not go well. I’m withdrawing from the whole affair. I understand he is presenting at the meeting. I won’t be attending. 

Where is the video posted?

[Duma]

Simon posted it last week:

I’ve posted a video where I talk about the history of bolts on the main face, changes in trad climbing and the details of the routes.
For the section where I took specifically and in detail about Big Cigar and Storming skip to 15.41

[stone]

Mad Dogs at Two Tier has been mentioned here as an example of a trad route spoilt by nearby bolts. Chris Hardy has just announced on FB that he intends to retro a route of his that seems to include some of Mad Dogs. https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/chee_dale_upper-10865/a_touch_of_class-11979

[Fiend]

Mad Dogs has been confirmed by a few people recently as NOT compromised by bolts at the moment (signs of older bolt chopping nearby). Good call highlighting Chris's plans, so now we can have a discussion and consensus as to whether he should do that (which might not stop the action, but would certainly provide context to dealing with it afterwards).

[Davo]

I’ve now commented on the Facebook post. I saw it earlier but didn’t really pay any attention.

A quick glance at Rockfax shows it connecting with Mad Dogs and Englishmen in the upper section. I did Mad Dogs a long time ago and remember enjoying it. It seems to me that there are loads of places to do 6c to 7a sport routes and we need to preserve the few classic trad routes in the peak.
Dave

[Hydraulic Man]

Chris has done a lot of good on Peak Limestone in the past but this seems pointless. I've done the route and cannot see it adding much to this wall which is compromised in other places....

[mark20]

I asked if by bolting A Touch of Class would effect Mad Dogs and he said no. It would be interesting to see if this is the case, as the routes join at the bulge. Any bolt on the upper wall would need to be suitably away from where Mad Dogs moves right, and the climbing much harder on ATOC such that climbers on MD aren't tempted to climb up a bit to clip it.
I don't know the routes well, but looking at the topo I can't see how ATOC could be bolted to become a sport route without either a bolt on or too close to MD, or huge runout. I guess we'll see.

[stone]

To me a trad route that wends it's way up between bolts is utterly different from one that wends its way through a blank face of rock.

Whether a bolt could be clipped isn't really the issue to me. It is about whether the trad route makes sense as something to climb. To me, it no longer does if there is a F6c/7a sport route to its side. It no longer serves as a logical way to get up that bit of rock and has been degraded into being a contrivance.

I totally appreciate that this isn't true for many people and especially isn't true for higher level and less ambivalent trad climbers than me. But I don't think it is that unusual a view. Trad routes hemmed in by sport routes to either side end up neglected except in a few rare cases where they are very hard test-piece routes (eg Ninth Life).

[Fiend]

The post has now been deleted from FB which is a bit frustrating as it didn't seem to have any particular vitriol or antagonism in response and was a good example of using a relevant forum to raise the idea before doing it unilaterally.

Surely not-very-hard testpieces should also be well climbed and kept clean too...