[SamT]

Nice one Simon.

What are the rules with High Tor re trad vs sport then.

You did Big Cigar as a sport route, but elected to go with this one as trad.

Not being particulaly antagonistic, just aways thought its a bit odd at High Tor which in my head is a Trad venue, but has this weird hybrid rule about the odd new sport route that nobody seems to mind. 

I get that bolting this would obviously interfere with some uber classic trad routes.

[shark]

Not sure about rules as High Tor has a mixed history.

Big Cigar was hybrid rather than sport as you have to do the hardest bit of Castellan first. I would have made it totally sport if I could. I did look to see if I could get to it from both left and right of the Castellan roof using bolts but it didn’t work.

Also look at some of the trad routes. There are bolts on many of the long-standing existing trad routes - Darius, Grapevine, Brompton Cocktail, Mad Max, Bastille - some from aid, others not. You’d only have to add a single extra bolt in Bastille to turn it into a sport route. 

Bolts also makes lines more directional as you have to stick to the line whereas trad you can end up going all over the place. Apart from there being no trad gear placements on the bolted section of Big Cigar I think if it was done as runout trad route you would end up traversing right to place gear or rest in neighbouring routes, reducing the quality compared to having bolted ot which forces you to stay on line.

Recentish Sport lines on the left wing by Jon Clark (Fury Road) and Dominic Lee (Peaky Blinder) have runout sections so as not to interfere with existing trad routes.

So in answer my personal approach is to treat each line on a case by case basis looking to interfere as little as possible with existing routes with a view to either equipping or not equipping in a way that is best for the end quality of the route. Some lines beg for bolts others to be unequipped then there shades of grey between where you weigh things up. I guess my default is to do it as trad at High Tor if it makes sense to do so.

[andy popp]

Not being particulaly antagonistic, just aways thought its a bit odd at High Tor which in my head is a Trad venue, but has this weird hybrid rule about the odd new sport route that nobody seems to mind. 

True of Chee Tor too? Admittedly the sport climbing there is more limited/contained (until I looked today I had no idea just how much sport there is at High Tor).

[T_B]

In reply to Sam: The left wing is effectively a sport venue now there are so many bolts. I did Roadrunner the other day and felt a bit like a weirdo trying to avoid the bolts on Peaky Blinder and Fury Road.

Chee Tor has more retro-ing going on but there’s an appetite for trad so hopefully some of the E6s will get repeats this year/hold out.

Nice one on Daydream Simon - be good to see a line on a topo.

[andy popp]

Chee Tor has more retro-ing going on but there’s an appetite for trad so hopefully some of the E6s will get repeats this year/hold out.

What kind of routes are getting retro-ed? I always thought the areas to which sport should be limited at Chee Tor were very obvious - the White Gold, Ogre and Tequila walls, plus a few spots on the bulge above the break. It's a crag where it should be easy to strike and maintain a balance.

That said, though I thought Laughing was a great experience with the original single bolt I can imagine plenty of people thinking it would make an even better 7a (or whatever).

[Neil F]

You’d only have to add a single extra bolt in Bastille to turn it into a sport route.

Really?  My memory of Bastille is having a hard, technical crux move (protected by a bolt), followed by a heartstopping runout up the groove until you could clip a peg.  Probably straightforward if you were headpointing, but quite a mind job if you were climbing on sight, had just unexpectedly flashed the crux and weren't properly warmed up!

It would be a great shame if folk were tempted to turn a masterpiece of such character into yet another (yawn) sport route, though I have no problem that the bolts on the tricky headwall (which was always a 'bolt ladder'), were replaced some years ago...

So in answer my personal approach is to treat each line on a case by case basis looking to interfere as little as possible with existing routes with a view to either equipping or not equipping in a way that is best for the end quality of the route.

Did you consider the impact on Fantasia when you equipped Big Cigar?  My memory of F (which I climbed before you did BC) was that the crux of the whole route was a perplexing, blind sequence moving around the rib from Castellan, to the ramp on Hot Gossip.  It also felt quite spicy at the time, though I imagine there is now a bolt above your head on the crux?  Not criticising you here, but sometimes when 'looking to interfere as little as possible with existing routes' you need eyes in the back of your head... 

Neil

[Tony]

Nice one Simon! As T_B writes, I’d  be keen to see a topo.

I think the trouble with lime trad is, on harder routes, there’s often not much of a line. That said, forcing a line using bolts often ends up with rather artificial routes, albeit they may climb well.

My preference would be to avoid bolting in the vicinity of trad routes (because you do wander for kit when trad climbing). I don’t think the Peak really needs more mediocre 7s at the cost of the relatively few existing harder trad routes.

[edited for clarity]

[shark]

You’d only have to add a single extra bolt in Bastille to turn it into a sport route.

Really?  My memory of Bastille is having a hard, technical crux move (protected by a bolt), followed by a heartstopping runout up the groove until you could clip a peg.  Probably straightforward if you were headpointing, but quite a mind job if you were climbing on sight, had just unexpectedly flashed the crux and weren't properly warmed up!

It would be a great shame if folk were tempted to turn a masterpiece of such character into yet another (yawn) sport route, though I have no problem that the bolts on the tricky headwall (which was always a 'bolt ladder'), were replaced some years ago...

Belayed someone on it yesterday and didn’t look as bold as I remembered it. There are nuts between the second bolt and the peg in the groove. So maybe one bolt and a peg bolt ;-)

So in answer my personal approach is to treat each line on a case by case basis looking to interfere as little as possible with existing routes with a view to either equipping or not equipping in a way that is best for the end quality of the route.

Did you consider the impact on Fantasia when you equipped Big Cigar?  My memory of F (which I climbed before you did BC) was that the crux of the whole route was a perplexing, blind sequence moving around the rib from Castellan, to the ramp on Hot Gossip.  It also felt quite spicy at the time, though I imagine there is now a bolt above your head on the crux?  Not criticising you here, but sometimes when 'looking to interfere as little as possible with existing routes' you need eyes in the back of your head... 

Neil

Yes. My bad putting in the top bolt on BC as it didn’t occur to me about Fantasia as it is a route I hadn’t done. TB didn’t like it there but another ascensionist of Fantasia found it very welcome. John Codling who did the first ascent said he didn’t recall that section as bold and was happy either with or without a bolt.

[Neil F]

Yes. My bad putting in the top bolt on BC as it didn’t occur to me about Fantasia as it is a route I hadn’t done...

Suggest you tackle that gap in your High Tor cv forthwith.  It's a fine day out.  Mind you, they seem to have tinkered with the description of the last pitch in Peak Limestone South  so make sure you do the original for the full tick 

Neil

[kc]

Chee Tor has more retro-ing going on but there’s an appetite for trad so hopefully some of the E6s will get repeats this year/hold out.

What kind of routes are getting retro-ed? I always thought the areas to which sport should be limited at Chee Tor were very obvious - the White Gold, Ogre and Tequila walls, plus a few spots on the bulge above the break. It's a crag where it should be easy to strike and maintain a balance.

The retro bolting has been restricted to the White Gold wall.
Being such a dark heavily lichenous buttress the few routes there never really got cleaned up much or at all since the mid 80s when they got cleaned up for the first ascents. Two routes of Gary's and one of Keith's that relied on a certain amount of rotten fixed gear. Keith was so keen for people to get back on his route he retroed it himself.
Apart from the Tequila wall there is no appetite for bolts on to the main crag. I don't think many people will be going upstairs to repeat yours and Zippy's extensions either.
BTW Boobs has some really nice bolts in now. Apart from the hideous crux it is such a quality line.

[SamT]

Thanks for the replies..  I always thought that the bolts were all a bit historic, so darius, lyme, old aid ladders on Bastille etc but wasn;t really aware of the the left wing routes now, which makes more sense for BC.

What a funny little nuanced thing Peak Lime is. 

[SamT]

True of Chee Tor too?

And Stoney these days.  Bolts popping up all over, again, on what is a trad crag, with the old historic bolt.  But garage butress is now a sport crag, with weird hybrid rules.

And Central butress WCJ.  And a lot of peak lime now, where sport and trad co-exist.

I think it kinda works... kinda.. whilst there are still old school protagonists out there that can keep some sort sense to the 'rules' (for want for a better word, since 'tradition' is too loaded with 'trad' conotations)

[shark]

Suggest you tackle that gap in your High Tor cv forthwith.  It's a fine day out.  Mind you, they seem to have tinkered with the description of the last pitch in Peak Limestone South  so make sure you do the original for the full tick 

Neil

Just checked the described finish in Peak Lime South with the original in the 1983 supplement and the new description looks to be more logical, longer and on better rock.

[Hydraulic Man]

Fantasia would feel spicy without that bolt for sure. We did it last year..Good route.

While we have a few High Tor first ascentionists here what's the thoughts on The Pillar? First peg has gone and the others were poor when Moran placed them hence his comments in Crags..No one has done it for ages.
..

[kc]

Fantasia would feel spicy without that bolt for sure. We did it last year..Good route.

While we have a few High Tor first ascentionists here what's the thoughts on The Pillar? First peg has gone and the others were poor when Moran placed them hence his comments in Crags..No one has done it for ages.
..

Al Evans placed them and they sound shit.https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/high_tor_derbyshire-119/the_pillar-15601

[shark]

I was thinking the same. Prime candidate for retrobolting. I’m sure John Codling wouldn’t an issue with Pillar Direct having the same treatment.

[Neil F]

Just checked the described finish in Peak Lime South with the original in the 1983 supplement and the new description looks to be more logical, longer and on better rock.

Longer, I would concede, but from how I read it, the new pitch completely misses out the crux of the original last pitch.

High Tor seems to suffer from 'tinkerage' - see the bizarre link-ups which appeared in the UKC Logbooks (and possibly the previous Peak Lime Rockfax).  Fortunately someone  shuffled these to a separate list of 'also rans' in the Logbooks, which is exactly what they deserved 

Ps. When you provide us with the requested topo for Daydream (I'm also interested in where it goes), please can you show the line of Demetia too?  Ta.

[Hydraulic Man]

I cut a path through to the tree at the top last year to facilitate cleaning. There was a mass of choss at the top...

Doubt it's anywhere near E5 6a in current condition...we couldn't find anything to belay on 4 years ago..

[shark]

Ps. WhenIf you provide us with the requested topo for Daydream (I'm also interested in where it goes), please can you show the line of Demetia too?  Ta.

Aren’t the descriptions obvious? Where’s your guys sense of adventure 
The line of Dementia is on the topo on pages 42 and 43 in Peak Limestone South.

PS Can someone tell me an easy way to post pics on here

Edit PPS I’ve WhatsApped the topo to Neil so he can upload it 😀

[Neil F]

No, we need spoonfeeding.  We're down with the kids....

(sorry  )

[Tony]

I was thinking the same. Prime candidate for retrobolting. I’m sure John Codling wouldn’t an issue with Pillar Direct having the same treatment.

Doubt it's anywhere near E5 6a in current condition...we couldn't find anything to belay on 4 years ago..

what's the thoughts on The Pillar? First peg has gone and the others were poor when Moran placed them hence his comments in Crags..No one has done it for ages.
..

Woah! Woah! Woah!

Let’s just clarify a few points here:

1) UKC logbooks is very far from a true picture of what is climbed, and is prone to extreme bias

2) It’s pretty evident from the write-up of The Pillar that the pegs were always rubbish. So replacing them with a bolt is not exactly like-for-like.

3) I’m unconvinced that popularity(/volume of comment) should be a particularly strong factor in deciding what should be retro-bolted. Clearly the first ascentionist (if alive) shouldn’t have a complete monopoly but the style of the first ascent should carry a fair bit of weight (else everyone would just bolt/de-bolt as they see fit).

4) Reversibility (without damage) is a common philosophy across many disciplines. Placing bolts is not wholly reversible. If someone is so desperate to climb an existing route, by all means top rope it (though, please, not to death!). But do you really need to bolt it?

[shark]

I led both back in the day. They were clips IIRC. The gear looks awful now. If you feel strongly enough repeat and report back.

[Tony]

I led both back in the day. They were clips IIRC. The gear looks awful now. If you feel strongly enough repeat and report back.

Unless the pegs have been replaced take care, I placed them for Jim and what looks like solid angles in up to the hilt are actually sawn off to 1 inch long so they did not bottom. As Jim led one just fell out after he had moved past it and rattled down the rope.

Yes, standard clip-up 

Not exactly sure why I should be the one having to do the legwork to defend the status quo; generally it’s for those seeking to make (irreversibly) changes (not to mention shifting norms) to justify their actions.

You’re usually quite keen on good decision making and governance.  Have you not read the BMC position statement on drilled equipment?

[Fiend]

Without reading any of the thread at all, my gut instinct is it sounds like a case for some good honest SPAD climbing 

[cheque]

Can someone tell me an easy way to post pics on here

Upload your image to imgbb.com (other image hosting sites are available).

Copy the link it gives you for the image.

Start a new reply to this thread and click on the icon that looks like a picture of the Mona Lisa above the smileys.

This will put a little bit of code into your reply- the letters img in square brackets twice, the second one with a slash in front of it.  Paste the code from imgbb inbetween the two.

When you post your image should appear.