[Dolly]

I really don’t need to spell it out but really. If you go out on t moors put the fuckers on a lead. I’ve seen too many disturbed curlews in last few weeks despite “ my “sneekla” wouldn’t do that

[matt463]

I don’t disagree with this. But I do feel resentful when you see gamekeepers not doing the same and simultaneously burning habitat and shooting whatever pops up out of the heather.

[teestub]

I don’t disagree with this. But I do feel resentful when you see gamekeepers not doing the same and simultaneously burning habitat and shooting whatever pops up out of the heather.

Strictly in terms of ground nesting bird populations, I think the controlled burning is a benefit https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/visiting/frequently-asked-questions/faqs-moorland-burning

[SamT]

What Dolly said.

Walking past stanage pole a few weeks back and big family wandering along, oblivious to the fact their dog was teararsing across the moors clearly in persuit of something.  Should have said something really, but resigned to the fact that it falls on deaf ears and had rather an upleasant experiance with some owners at cannings a year or so ago when fido jumps up at my wife and puts muddy paw prints all over a brand new jacket.. we're the cunts apparently.

[SamT]

But I do feel resentful when you see gamekeepers not doing the same

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of bloodsports and the persecuition of birds of prey by gamekeepers makes my piss boil, but I rather suspect their dogs are increadibly well trained and will come to heel at the meer thought of a hard stare. Unlike 99.999%  of the dogs you see out and about.

There's a couple that frequent the rising sun in fulwood that have a large greyhound that they quite happily let sprawl right across the carpet in the middle of a bit of a thoroughfare - i.e. at the top of the stairs down to the loos.  If my kid accompanied me to the pub and just laid down and sprawed across the floor, at a point where folks had to step over them, fearful of a trip which might see them head long down some stairs, I might have a word with said kid, or would perhaps have the management come over and have a word.  But not fido.. pride of place in the family.. some sort of elevated status in society above all social restraints and ettiquete.

ooooo.. you've got me started now.

[lagerstarfish]

I've almost stopped telling people. Too many times it has got to the point where the dog lover refuses to be sensible and I end up saying something along the lines of "put your dog on the lead or I will kill it".
I am aware that I may end up with a criminal conviction if I carry on like this.
To be honest, I'm surprised there hasn't been an internet witch hunt for me already.

[Paul B]

In other news, people can be selfish, ignorant dickheads (whether that's with their dogs, their kids or dragging a disposable BBQ into the moors)? 

[spidermonkey09]

What Paul said. Some proper old man opinions on here this evening! 

Obviously dog owners should be cognisant of other peoples preferences and not act like dicks. Clearly they shouldn't be allowed to run riot on the Moor when they're not allowed to either.

Society is about tolerance. There are loads more dogs than there used to be now for lots of reasons (not least because people are having families later, covid, and dogs are great). The comments above have a very 90s vibe to me personally! I can't personally get too upset about a dog lying on the carpet in a pub!

Edit, to be clear this is all tongue in cheek as I also enjoy a good rant!

[spidermonkey09]

Off topic; Thinking about it some more I think the raw numbers are the biggest issue. Just makes it statistically way more likely to see bad behaviour, but it's here to stay; people like having dogs. That alongside cultural change; even as a kid I remember not being allowed in certain areas of the pub or in the pub at all after a certain time. Pretty sure that's not a thing now, around me anyway ; when did that change? Kids and dogs are generally welcome in most places now in a way they weren't before and that's generally good I think, even if the grumpy millennial in me does occasionally think a return to "seen and not heard" would be welcome for kids 

[SamT]

I've had a glass of wine and feeling radged.. 

TBH, I've always had a grumpy old man view of dogs and dog ownership in general, even from being a liberal young teenager.  And its not cause I had some sort of bad experience with one biting me as a toddler or owt.

It's not that hate dogs in and of themselves, I've just never really understood their elevated status in society/family situations and their status in society has gone stratospheric in the last decade or so. They're often cosidered by far and away the most important member of the family and allowed to behave in ways that would be considered utterly shocking and intollerable if they were human.   

Take pub dog for instance,  are you telling me that if someones 8 year old was just laid sprawled out in the middle of a pub, right in the way, with folks stepping right over it every time they went to the bar/toilet, and that the parents made no acknowledgement of the fact, let alone apologise, or get the child to move,

To me, their breath stinks, they slober, their shit needs cleaning up, they piss up against bins and lamposts, they chew shit to death (including my prized stussy beanie that got destroyed by a mates great dane), they kill and maim wild life and livestock, they kill and maim humans, and they just fecking get away with it scott free.  Nobody seems to bat an eyelid.
And when someone does perhaps pipe up, then people are askance, they can't get their heads round the fact that not everyone adores their little fido and then we're accused of being grumpy old intolerant blokes with old fashioned attitudes (or worse).

But of course your fido would never do any of that. Its always other owners/dogs that do any of that.

Like lagers, I should just recognised that we're in a tiny minority of the population that don't consider dogs to be some sort of demigods and shut up..

Anyhow, where's that glass of wine gone. 

[spidermonkey09]

  I can't help but think there's probably a middle ground! I mean, I struggle to see the issue with piss at the base of lampposts/bins myself.

 The increased status of dogs is something I find interesting too and I do think it's linked to people having families later. I don't have kids but do have a dog,for example. I'm not an apologist for poor dog behaviour and am not a bleeding heart liberal about them either, eg. I support the XL Bully ban.

Re the pub dog, I have absolutely no problem stepping over a dog to go to the bar. It simply doesn't bother me, I'm not being facetious. I think the kid comparison is slightly flawed because kids don't lie asleep on the floor as a matter of course. Perhaps a better comparison is a kid noisily doing something in the corner or running up and down in a non offensive, maybe slightly annoying but ultimately harmless way. In my grumpier moments this would annoy me but ultimately they're just kids being kids. If they were being out of order, knocking my pint over, I'd expect parents to step in. Ditto the dogs owners if someone's dog knocked my pint over or barked at me or whatever.

I guess I just think people like different things. At the moment we're definitely in a dog boom so I think you're shit out of luck 

[shurt]

There's a place in Bristol where you can traverse on an old wall which I did for a while. I had one of those huge dogs bound up to me and bark very aggressively to the point where I thought it was going to bite me. I shouted repeatedly at the owner who just laughed. Bear in mind some of my shouts included the words "can you get your fucking dog away from me" - no cigar. If I hear "it's alright, she won't bite" again I'll go mad. The truth is no dog owner knows for sure that their dog won't bite they are just saying it hopefully - I got a dog owning friend of mine to admit to this. I've drank no wine and can't stand most dog owners... 

[andy popp]

The truth is no dog owner knows for sure that their dog won't bite they are just saying it hopefully

This. We always had dogs growing up and though I never had one myself as an adult lots of friends did and my parents continued to have dogs. I was completely comfortable around them. Then about 15 years ago, at Burbage South boulders, I was bitten by one, drawing blood, in a completely unprovoked attack. The dog appeared from nowhere and attacked immediately. My young daughter was sat on the floor, her face at the level of the dog's jaws. It continued to attack and I had to literally fend it off with my pad. After several minutes of this the owner arrived (looked like she was out for a run, outdoorsy type wearing a SHAFF t-shirt), barely an apology, acted all surprised seeing as the dog had only ever bitten someone "once" before (!!!!!).

It was frightening and left me very nervous around unfamiliar dogs, especially those not on a leash. I don't trust them and don't see that I should be asked to. Sure, she was clearly a "bad" owner, but even good owners can lose control of a dog. As a parent I know other people's children can be a pain in the arse. Some parents are selfish and irresponsible. But dogs are potentially dangerous. It's not the same. We shouldn't have to just accept we're shit out of luck.

[NaoB]

I got bitten by a dog at the crag in Datca, also completely unprovoked. I had a perfect set of fang marks on my shin and it bled profusely. The owners seemed really upset and said the dog had never done anything like that previously.

A couple of weeks ago I was chatting to another climber who had been to Datca the week after us - lo and behold, he had also been bitten by the same dog and had been told by the same owners that it had never done that before!

I am definitely way more wary of crag dogs now after that very upsetting and traumatic experience. It's also incredibly annoying when exuberant dogs race up and down the crag running over pads (under climbers!) or across ropes. And of course the ones that steal your sandwiches....

[stone]

A dog owner who I like and respect (Hi if you're reading this) had a go at me for having a bag of nuts and raisins at the crag. Apparently we should avoid taking raisins to the crag because they could harm random passing dogs that choose to steal our lunch. Apparently he had incurred a hefty vet bill when his dog had done that in the past.

Does anyone know of some food or something that doesn't actually hurt dogs but just gives them exquisitely ghastly smelling flatulence or something. I'd love to strew such food around me whenever at the crag   

[Fiend]

If I went to a pub that DIDN'T have a dog sprawled across the floor getting in the way of people walking to the bar etc, I would walk out and try to find another pub.

[spidermonkey09]

Clearly nobody is suggesting that being bitten is just something to suck up and accept! I totally agree that's not on. I think we're speaking at crossed purposes though because clearly the majority of dogs in society don't go around biting people.

As people who don't like dogs, what would you like to see changed (within the bounds of realistic possibility?). To a certain extent I'm with Paul B in that there are lots of people, therefore there are lots of dog owners, some of which are idiots, some of which won't train their dog properly. A small percentage of a big number is still a big number etc. What can practically be done? Realistically dogs can't be kept on a lead at all times in public places. Some sort of licensing system?

[stone]

I suppose if we're talking about climbers with their dogs at the crag, I'd like them to take their dogs for walks at regular intervals during the day, train them to stay quietly next to the owner, not wander away sniffing the crotches and stealing lunches of other people at the crag etc. Not jump in and out of the river shaking water over peoples stuff, barking etc. That's leaving aside biting etc.

[andy popp]

clearly the majority of dogs in society don't go around biting people.

No, clearly they don't, but having been bitten by one (a dog I'm sure the owner believed was a "good" dog, its biting me being somehow aberrant, despite the fact that it had done it before) how and why am I expected to trust any other unfamiliar unleashed dog? Why can't dogs be kept on leads at all times in public? Genuine question. A request to keep your dog on a lead is what this thread started with after all.

Worth clarifying - I don't dislike dogs. I dislike dogs that are not under close control.

[spidermonkey09]

No, clearly they don't, but having been bitten by one (a dog I'm sure the owner believed was a "good" dog, its biting me being somehow aberrant, despite the fact that it had done it before) how and why am I expected to trust any other unfamiliar unleashed dog? Why can't dogs be kept on leads at all times in public? Genuine question. A request to keep your dog on a lead is what this thread started with after all.

No, I understand that; its logical for people who've had a bad experience to suspect that similar experiences might come from other dogs. I've also been bitten by a dog at a crag, but not badly; definitely enough to piss me off though!

Re the leads in public spaces. Basically because its all but impossible to exercise a dog (any young/reasonably sized dog anyway) sufficiently solely through walking at human pace. Imagine a horse that was confined for its whole life to a stable and only exercised by walking it around the block on a bridle. Its just not a practical solution to a real life problem; it sounds totally reasonable unless you own a dog, I suspect. I agree that in certain public spaces they should be on leads (urban areas, around kids parks, around livestock, the moors during the nesting season) but definitely not a blanket ban. Ultimately requests to keep dogs on the lead in certain places only work if you have corresponding places where they can be off. The moors above my house are subject to the nesting season dogs on leads order but the signs stay up all year round, with no mention of the months which are relevant/important, with the result being that its largely ignored, because people see a massive open space and don't understand why the dog can't be off.

I suppose if we're talking about climbers with their dogs at the crag, I'd like them to take their dogs for walks at regular intervals during the day, train them to stay quietly next to the owner, not wander away sniffing the crotches and stealing lunches of other people at the crag etc. Not jump in and out of the river shaking water over peoples stuff, barking etc. That's leaving aside biting etc.

This is all common sense and stuff I absolutely agree with.

[andy popp]

Its just not a practical solution to a real life problem; it sounds totally reasonable unless you own a dog

I do understand. As I said, my parent always had a dog and I must have spent hundreds of hours walking one of them when I was a teenager; I had easy access to countryside and it was a great excuse to get outside for a few hours. Trouble is, those are exactly the circumstances - someone exercising their dog off the lead in the countryside - in which I was bitten.

[spidermonkey09]

Yeah, this is the issue; ultimately it just comes full circle and its pretty hard to see a solution. Its kind of analogous to road traffic accidents ; a person can be doing nothing wrong and be involved in a car accident, whether as a pedestrian or a fellow driver. If we were really interested in reducing risk to the public, cars would be forced to go at 20 pretty much everywhere, but we don't do it because of the trade offs required. Obviously cars are essential and dog ownership isn't, but short of banning dogs, or introducing some sort of licensing system which would either be ignored or price everyone but the middle classes out of owning one, there isn't a lot to be done other than reinforcing what good dog ownership looks like. Which is, to be fair, how this thread started. 

[andy popp]

Yeah, this is the issue; ultimately it just comes full circle and its pretty hard to see a solution.

I know, and I very nearly ended by making exactly that point. Whether or not cars are essential we can debate another time 

[petejh]

If I went to a pub that DIDN'T have a dog sprawled across the floor getting in the way of people walking to the bar etc, I would walk out and try to find another pub.

Dog & Duck surely has one or the other.


Stone, perhaps we should ban dogs on private jets, being as they contribute around the same CO2 (I don't really believe they contribute the same, but then I don't think banning private jets achieves any meaningful impact either)
https://theconversation.com/how-cats-and-dogs-affect-the-climate-and-what-you-can-do-about-it-206812#:~:text=Using%20this%20approach%2C%20the%20food,Lee's%20770kg%20a%20year%20calculation.

[abarro81]

If I got bitten by a dog enough to break the skin I would do everything I could to have the fucker put down.