[Danny]

I've been following the Lattice/Tyler Nelson drama about who came up with a particularly shaped bit of wood first with some bemusement. (e.g. http://www.instagram.com/p/C7O8hFYyPxl/?igsh=ZXRxdWkzZHRvYTQ=)

To give everyone involved credit, I guess there's money and jobs and reputations in the mix. By these lights this stuff matters.

On the other hand, we're not talking about room temperature superconductors, we're talking about little bits of wood. Bits of wood that have perhaps been a tad over-hyped. The advice of getting out and touching grass/rock seems relevant.



 

[mrjonathanr]

Biscuit does something similar. I've got the 40mm one, but elbow issues means I've not been able to use it much so difficult to comment.

https://www.processphysiotherapy.co.uk/unlevel-edge

[SA Chris]

The advice of getting out and touching grass/rock/cloth seems relevant.

[mrjonathanr]

Description of a top out at Gogarth?

[edshakey]

I've been following the Lattice/Tyler Nelson drama about who came up with a particularly shaped bit of wood first with some bemusement. (e.g. http://www.instagram.com/p/C7O8hFYyPxl/?igsh=ZXRxdWkzZHRvYTQ=)

To give everyone involved credit, I guess there's money and jobs and reputations in the mix. By these lights this stuff matters.

On the other hand, we're not talking about room temperature superconductors, we're talking about little bits of wood. Bits of wood that have perhaps been a tad over-hyped. The advice of getting out and touching grass/rock seems relevant.

I'm not on Instagram and had not heard of this "drama". The post you linked is a Lattice advert, but I not seeing the drama element. Have you got a brief summary of what's actually happened?

[Droyd]

I'm not a massive fan of Tyler Nelson, but he seems to be arguing that Lattice had him in to do some consulting for the product, and that they used his measurements. If that were me and I read the Lattice guff about "100s of hours research" and all of the hyperbolic marketing around it I'd probably be pissed (maybe not enough to record myself playing Master of Puppets and stick it on social media with a caption about "blowing off some steam", but we're all different).

It's fun that rather than addressing any of this Lattice are getting into the Evil MegaCorp schtick by deleting comments on their Instagram posts and YouTube advertorial completely coincidentally timed 'how to do finger lifts' video with lots of close-ups of their new product. It seems a weird approach given it'd be a lot easier to just say 'yeah, people have been doing this for ages', 'no, we didn't steal your idea/data'...

[Paul B]

I'm pretty sure Zippy had something similar what must be 15-20 years ago now. It was more ghetto with screws sticking out the side from memory.

[SA Chris]

That's exactly what my home made one is like. A piece of 2 x 4 with some slats off an old garden chair screwed into the side. No ergonomy, just dirty crimps.

[remus]

It's fun that rather than addressing any of this Lattice are getting into the Evil MegaCorp schtick by deleting comments on their Instagram posts and YouTube advertorial completely coincidentally timed 'how to do finger lifts' video with lots of close-ups of their new product. It seems a weird approach given it'd be a lot easier to just say 'yeah, people have been doing this for ages', 'no, we didn't steal your idea/data'...

We've been trying to talk to Tyler directly rather than duking it out in Instagram comments, but he's not been very receptive.

[joe-m]

While very sensible that’s much less entertaining for the rest of us.

[SA Chris]

Indeed. I've just popped a fresh batch of corn....

[Stu Littlefair]

It’s been quite amusing. In summary for those not following on the ‘gram.

1) For years and years people have been playing with using “uneven” edges to balance the load on the fingers. See posts by SA Chris, the foundry campus board and shark’s 2020 efforts to make “ergo edges” a thing on this forum.

2) Mostly the response from the climbing community has been to ignore this. Around 2022 Tyler did some measurements and showed that an unlevel edge allows you to pull harder.

3) probably as a result of those posts the market exploded and lots of people now make and sell edges with different height notches for the fingers.

4) At some point Lattice had a few calls with Tyler to discuss his ideas and Tyler shared his data on finger sizes.

5) This week lattice released an extra special edge using a different approach - a variable edge depth rather than height. It seems designed to produce the opposite effect to the unlevel edges - focusing weight on the middle fingers.

6) Tyler got upset because the lattice marketing didn’t explicity name check him as the patron saint of edge design.

It’s not entirely sure why Tyler thought he should be included in a different companies marketing material. If I do some consulting I’m normally pretty clear what I want in return or if I’m just doing it out of the goodness of my heart.

Either way it seems there’s now an army of Tyler Nelson fans posting angry comments in an attempt to disrupt Lattice’s carefully orchestrated marketing blitz.

In the meantime, the edge itself seems quite nice. I’ve just got one and have thoughts, might post a review in a bit.

[abarro81]

Do you really think it does something different to the other unlevel edges Stu? Seems to me that either version is surely mostly about making the angles on the mid 2 less aggressive (in much the same way that the B2 pocket on the beastmaker allows you to get your pinky on without bending the ring finger)? But I've not used the ones with the bump. I assume it's mostly about allowing comfy angles to enable more force?

Either way, I have an old prototype lattice one and I mostly like it for B3 half crimp - on a level edge that puts too much strain on my dodgy mid finger PIP, and the uneven edge seems to let me try much harder before it becomes tweaky

[Stu Littlefair]

So, first the caveat that it’s still just pulling on edges, it’s not going to be radically different to a campus rung. With that in mind…

Some context: the reason I bought one is that I have a bit of an issue with my finger lengths when training a half crimp. For me, my pinky is usually straight, and the edge sits nicely on the crease at the end of the first joint. This can support a lot of weight, but it’s unpredictable. I could just use a front 3 of course but that can get tweaky. I was hoping the MXEdge (TM) would fix that.

You’re right that both the lattice edge and the unlevel edges will put the mid 2 fingers in a comfier position and make training a bit less tweaky.

However I’ve tried the unlevel edges and for me they do share the load out more across all the fingers. I’ve gone back and forth about if this is a good thing. I can see arguments for and against.

However the lattice MXedge (TM) does not (for me) do the same thing. The weight distribution across the fingers feels similar to how I would hold a flat edge. This is true to the extent that neither Jules or I thought it felt any different to a flat edge on first acquaintance.

Having used it in anger though I can say I like it. It feels quite a bit less tweaky and I can pick up more weight than I would be able to on a flat edge of similar size. These seem like good things.

I’m not sure why I can lift more with it. The better joint angles is one possible reason, but another is that the curved back has en effect which is similar to “nestling” on a flat edge - holding the fingers together and reducing load on the lumbricals and interossei.

At the end of the day it’s hard to tell if picking up larger weights actually causes more activation/recruitment in the forearm muscles, which is what we care about. For both the lattice and uneven edges other effects could be at play. As far as I’m aware no-one is doing needle-based EMG studies of the flexor digital profundus with these edges, but that’s the data you’d need to see if they are actually going to make you stronger!

However, where I REALLY like the lattice edge is for awkward grips - back 3, full crimp. Full crimps in particular feel much more natural and comfy than on a flat edge. I’d be happier training these grips on this board than a standard fingerboard.

The block itself is a nice design. Surprisingly it works as a pinch quite well too, although they are obviously shallow pinches. It’s stable and doesn’t tilt. The mono is nicely done and doesn’t get in the way.

It’s not as well made or pretty as the gorgeous hardwood and resin hold Ned made for me, but it’s pretty good for a commercial softwood edge.

What’s not as good? Well it costs a lot of money. Also there’s nothing to stop you using a normal edge and placing your fingers on it the same way! This would be less repeatable, but a lot cheaper.

[teestub]

Designing an edge that will allow people to post vids of themselves lifting more weight, without actually getting stronger, seems like a market winner for sure!

[Stu Littlefair]

Big numbers for weak fingers

[mrjonathanr]

I don’t quite know what I think about these unlevel edges.

Firstly, the reason you can lift more weight with an unlevel edge is the finger positioning on a flat edge creates mechanical disadvantages which these address. Great. So the edge allows me to train heavier loads in idealised conditions. Is weight a good proxy for strength? Same force in a mechanically advantageous position means more weight held, but I don’t see that lower weight in a mechanically disadvantaged position means  the muscle is being trained to produce less force, just that it’s being applied less efficiently. Surely the advantage of a flat edge is it replicates real world application and what we want is force in those conditions. So a flat edge trains muscle to produce force under mechanical disadvantage. That’s just climbing, right?

So is there an advantage in training under mechanically advantaged conditions? It seems to me that some fingers are not loaded enough on a flat edge to get a good training stimulus and the unlevel edges address this. So that’s a clear positive.

Additionally, a better distribution of load and joint angles should be less tweaky. No one wants a finger injury from training.

So my take is that they’re a good addition, strengthening some fingers/finger positions and being less injury inducing, but flat edge training still has value.

[36chambers]

a fresh Metallica cover has dropped on c4hp's inta stories as well as some more shots at Lattice. And just when I thought it was high time to unfollow them

[teestub]

a fresh Metallica cover has dropped on c4hp's inta stories as well as some more shots at Lattice. And just when I thought it was high time to unfollow them

I’d love to see their 😭😭😭 posts, but I got blocked after mildly questioning one of the more esoteric training posts

[spidermonkey09]

Can't believe you're an Internet bully stubs. Blocked and unfollowed! 

[csl]

I’ve been enjoying the drama. I can see how the marketing hyperbole got some unlevel edge creators upset (it wasn’t just c4hp) but it’s weird that they all think they’ve done something unique 

Shark’s ergo edge was the first I heard of but it sounds like it’s been going on since the dawn of time anyway.

[JamieG]

My wife thinks it’s all a massive ruse so he can get more people to watch him play guitar.   

Despite being Metallica covers it’s all very emo. I love it!

[Fultonius]

Weird, I just realised that I hadn't seen any of this on IG. I'm not on there that much, but I did used to see C4HP stuff on there quite regularly, which I no longer do.

If I click the link through Google to his IG, it says "page no longer there".

Have I also been blocked for some reason, or has he taken his site down, or been taken down by IG?

[36chambers]

The account still works for me: https://www.instagram.com/c4hp/

it could be that you blocked him at some point, you'll have to check your blocked accounts list. Otherwise, you should probably have been nicer to them in the past

[Danny]

He seems a bit petulant TBQH. I'm sure Lattice are doing well, but it's not like they're a giant evil mega corp. Their only apparent sin looks to be marketing the shit out of their expensive bits of wood, while being opaque about precedent. Surely that's the game in the entire history of marketing sporting goods.