[stone]

Our job as a society is to try and have everyone happily employed doing the jobs that really need doing.

When I hear stuff such as "credible sane policies that recognise difficult economic circumstances" etc, it generally transpires that what that actually boils down to is an acceptance of things being utterly screwed up.

It is just a choice that we leave what is desperately needed undone whilst having vast swathes of people either underemployed or being asset-managers, buy-to-let landlords, hand-car-washers etc. We don't have what we need because of those choices.

[ToxicBilberry]

How has the Tory party moved that range to the right and at the same time created a situation where they’re looking at the potential for a big defeat? Or are Labour now right of where they were when Tony Blair was in power?

Q2: no, they are not.  Q1: I don't believe that they have,  really.  Indeed,  I'm not sure that traditional left and right makes that much sense now.  It's almost inevitable that more money needs to be spent on defence in the next few years; I don't like it,  but it does.  Neither party is being totally honest about how difficult economic choices will be in the next few years,  there isn't going to be badly needed big spending on public services, or lower taxes.  Both parties are desperately trying not to mention Brexit,  which is plainly silly from a policy point of view but convenient politically for both of them.  Management of trade and migration are hugely dependent on our relationship with Europe and it needs addressing. 
I haven't voted Labour for a long time but almost certainly will now, they're closer to having the beginning of a decent environmental/ industrial policy, and have a credible sane shadow chancellor and a shadow health secretary with some positive sounding ideas on the NHS.

Thanks, that makes sense. I voted for Corbyn but won’t be voting at all this time.

Stone, I’m not sure what your ideological vision is? I hear some people talking about being ‘utopians’     but I’m not sure what that utopia looks like.

[Will Hunt]

Stone, it's not as simple as it being a choice not to implement the Utopian Shopping List. All that stuff you want costs a lot of money that the treasury would have to front astronomical sums to implement. What I think Toby means when he says no party is being completely honest is that nobody has really spelled out to the electorate just how crap our finances are (and the age of cheap capital is over).

Not to mention that your Utopian Shopping List is very different to someone else's and politicians have to strike a balance between the electorate's various desires.

[stone]

I thought the 2017 Labour manifesto was excellent.

Funnily enough, perhaps a good overview of what Labour then was about is this report from the rightwing think tank Policy Exchange https://policyexchange.org.uk/publication/mcdonnellomics/

[stone]

What is real is the people we have here and their capabilities, the land we have here, the rest of the world and the real resources people there might exchange with us.

All the rest of it is societal constructs. The powers-that-be evidently are happy to recognise that at times. For covid, bank bailouts, wars etc, we get central bank treasury coordination etc to do whatever it takes.

I don't even think we need much in terms of economic radicalism anyway. Just a willingness to face up to vested interests. Wealth taxes, rent controls, employment reform etc would be enough. Like I said, I'd be delighted with something like the 2017 Labour manifesto.

[Davo]

Hi Stone

I basically agree with you regarding economic policies and I don’t see that we can’t improve things a great deal if the political will is there.

However, my opinion is that I prefer almost any form of Labour govt over the conservative one we have now. I also think that Corbyn was pretty much a disaster for Labour in terms of electability. I liked the majority of his policies but the way he went about leading Labour and presenting himself to the electorate was abysmal. I understand that he appealed to quite a lot of people and got many people very excited about politics for the first time but clearly he was unelectable.

I am not enthused by most of Starmer’s policies but neither am I appalled by them like I am by most of the decisions that the current govt has made over the last 10 years. I just want a change and I want to give Labour a chance to have a go at running the country. They have enough ideas and policies that if implemented will at the very least make things slightly better. There is unlikely to be much economic radicalism initially but possibly there might be in a second term if they win again.

Cheers Dave

[TobyD]

I thought the 2017 Labour manifesto was excellent.

Doesn't that involve big spending and borrowing? When the gilt market and higher interest rate makes that even less of an idea now. Do you really think that Russia will leave Europe alone if we leave them alone?
Apart from anything else, in 2017 nowhere near enough people voted labour to make it a realistic plan for government.

Haven't we recently had a prime minister who tried some economic radicalism and ideas from a think tank? Surely Corbyn ideas would have gone exactly the same way.

[ali k]

All that stuff you want costs a lot of money that the treasury would have to front astronomical sums to implement.

Or private individuals.

Stone - one of the items on your Utopian Shopping List is ‘Passivhaus standards for new buildings’. By when? Legislation passed in the first 100 days? By the end of the Parliament? I assume this covers houses too? Do we currently have the knowledge/skills to implement this across the industry nationwide? What would this do to house prices/renting costs (which are already unaffordable for many)? Or would general taxation subsidise this for private buyers/renters?

Don’t get me wrong, building standards in the UK have been very poor, particularly houses. And the UK is way behind the curve with energy efficiency. But the industry is moving in the right direction.

I’ve picked up on one item on your list that I know something about. If Labour put that in their manifesto to update Building Regs to Passivhaus standards even by 2030 I’d piss myself knowing how unrealistic it was and would have to conclude the rest of the manifesto is equally pie in the sky. Which is what happened when Corbyn was in charge.

I’m sure the other items on your list could be equally dismantled or picked apart on further interrogation by someone with the knowledge and/or inclination (e.g. the right wing press). So Labour would get nowhere near Downing Street. That’s the most important first step to getting anything done.

[Will Hunt]

You're not doing it right, Ali. You have to close your eyes tight, ball your fists, and believe. All we need is the political will to leave our reality and we shall ascend to the sunlit uplands.

[stone]

ali k, I'm keen to hear more about building regs from you as you say you know about it.

My impression was that in 2010 there were plans in place towards transitioning to very high energy conservation standards but those were scrapped. In France don't they have such a plan still ongoing (happy to be corrected)?

My impression is that even the small amount of Passivhaus social housing building that has happened has led to dramatic cost reductions due to 'learning-by-doing" such that now costs are comparable to standard builds https://www.passivhaustrust.org.uk/competitions_and_campaigns/passivhaus-for-local-authorities/

I'm put in mind of how at the start of the covid pandemic, we got told that there was no way covid PCR tests could be done on a large scale. I saw first hand how totally inexperienced people could be rapidly trained up to the point where they could train up others to do tens of thousands of covid PCRs a day.

Let's remember that at the start of WWII, the USA not only didn't have many battleships, they didn't have the ship yards, or the trained staff or anything. They taught and built and got all of that done in a couple of years.

[Oldmanmatt]

All that stuff you want costs a lot of money that the treasury would have to front astronomical sums to implement.

Or private individuals.

An overrated source of funds. In comparison to the wealth of even a moderately sized developed nation, even the most fabulous Billionaire pales. There is some realistic comparison where the individual, personal wealth blurs into the nations wealth (most Middle Eastern Monarchies, Putin’s Russia etc), but they’re unlikely to help  UK development much…

[andy popp]

All that stuff you want costs a lot of money that the treasury would have to front astronomical sums to implement.

Or private individuals.

An overrated source of funds. In comparison to the wealth of even a moderately sized developed nation, even the most fabulous Billionaire pales. There is some realistic comparison where the individual, personal wealth blurs into the nations wealth (most Middle Eastern Monarchies, Putin’s Russia etc), but they’re unlikely to help  UK development much…

I assumed Ali meant general taxation?

[stone]

For a government/central-bank the monetary system is a mechanism for administering the real resources (ie population) they have jurisdiction over. Nothing more, nothing less. So please let's have less mysticism about this.

[Fultonius]

All that stuff you want costs a lot of money that the treasury would have to front astronomical sums to implement.

Or private individuals.

Stone - one of the items on your Utopian Shopping List is ‘Passivhaus standards for new buildings’. By when? Legislation passed in the first 100 days? By the end of the Parliament? I assume this covers houses too? Do we currently have the knowledge/skills to implement this across the industry nationwide? What would this do to house prices/renting costs (which are already unaffordable for many)? Or would general taxation subsidise this for private buyers/renters?

Don’t get me wrong, building standards in the UK have been very poor, particularly houses. And the UK is way behind the curve with energy efficiency. But the industry is moving in the right direction.

I’ve picked up on one item on your list that I know something about. If Labour put that in their manifesto to update Building Regs to Passivhaus standards even by 2030 I’d piss myself knowing how unrealistic it was and would have to conclude the rest of the manifesto is equally pie in the sky. Which is what happened when Corbyn was in charge.

I’m sure the other items on your list could be equally dismantled or picked apart on further interrogation by someone with the knowledge and/or inclination (e.g. the right wing press). So Labour would get nowhere near Downing Street. That’s the most important first step to getting anything done.

I'm guessing this news hasn't filtered south of the border? Scotland adopts passivhaus regs, starting 2025.

[andy popp]

You're not doing it right, Ali. You have to close your eyes tight, ball your fists, and believe. All we need is the political will to leave our reality and we shall ascend to the sunlit uplands.

I'm not getting at you Will (well, maybe a tiny bit) but my overriding impression of this thread so far is one of just how low people's expectations have sunk at this point, to a level of almost total resignation.

Apart from Stone, not having a Tory government is about all anyone seems to dare hope for. I get it; the last fourteen year have been exhausting, lurching from dangerous (Cameron/Osborne & austerity/Brexit) through utterly dysfunctional (Johnson & Truss) to completely hapless and inept (Sunak). There can be very few Tories who genuinely think recent years have exemplified good governance. They haven't governed well, even on their terms, let alone those of anyone else (or on the terms of mainstream C20th Toryism, including Thatcher). People rightly want them gone. But beyond that ... ? I also understand that Labour are caught in headlights of a very rightwing media and first past the post.

Political will is absolutely necessary, not to escape reality but to begin to change it. Even pragmatic politics begin in some willpower.

(I acknowledge that I am now effectively an outsider and don't have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to having the will to change things, having basically fucked off).

[Will Hunt]

I don't disagree with any of that, Andy. I think you're right: I'm exasperated and my expectations are low. There's lots that I want to see a new government do to try and drag us out of the mire that the Conservatives have left us in. Political will is necessary but so is currency, which we don't yet have in the quantities we need it. That's why, for me, my priorities are economic stability, growth, and productivity (plus the environment [climate and energy] and housing, but we need the first bits to make the second bits happen - in fact they are interconnected). And I recognise that these issues are complex enough not to be turned around simply in a single parliament.

As you describe, we've been veering from one crisis to another since at least 2016 and so much of it hasn't been precipitated by external pressures but by the internal machinations of the Tory party. For those living in truly safe Labour seats, or the deepest blue, I can understand an intention to vote for a 3rd party, but for those who have the slimmest chance to unseat the Conservatives it seems crazy not to throw your weight behind whoever is best placed to beat them, most likely Labour.

To quote David Sedaris, writing about Trump Vs Clinton:
I think of being on an airplane. The flight attendant comes down the aisle with her food cart and, eventually, parks it beside my seat. "Can I interest you in the chicken?" she asks. "Or would you prefer the platter of shit with bits of broken glass in it?" To be undecided in this election is to pause for a moment and then ask how the chicken is cooked.

That's how I feel when I see people complaining that Keir Starmer isn't their perfect Prime Minister.

[spidermonkey09]

I'm not getting at you Will (well, maybe a tiny bit) but my overriding impression of this thread so far is one of just how low people's expectations have sunk at this point, to a level of almost total resignation.

I think this is correct; my expectations are indeed very low. I'm 30 and have never voted in an election, of any sort, where my preferred outcome won until a few weeks ago at the locals. I am fucking sick of it and so am willing to vote for pretty much any Labour party at this point. I was fully behind the Corbyn project and I wish it had gone better but I've definitely become more cynical since its failure; I'm pretty resigned to the UK being a fairly right wing country at heart for the rest of my life; there are so many vested interests that make it so, and I'd like to live under a Labour government as much as possible.

[stone]

Political will is necessary but so is currency, which we don't yet have in the quantities we need it.

I'm so puzzled as to what the thinking is behind this assertion. It would be great to have some steer as to where it fits within eg the alternative viewpoints sketched out in https://jwmason.org/slackwire/thirteen-questions-about-money/

[Oldmanmatt]

I don't disagree with any of that, Andy. I think you're right: I'm exasperated and my expectations are low. There's lots that I want to see a new government do to try and drag us out of the mire that the Conservatives have left us in. Political will is necessary but so is currency, which we don't yet have in the quantities we need it. That's why, for me, my priorities are economic stability, growth, and productivity (plus the environment [climate and energy] and housing, but we need the first bits to make the second bits happen - in fact they are interconnected). And I recognise that these issues are complex enough not to be turned around simply in a single parliament.

As you describe, we've been veering from one crisis to another since at least 2016 and so much of it hasn't been precipitated by external pressures but by the internal machinations of the Tory party. For those living in truly safe Labour seats I can understand an intention to vote for a 3rd party, but for those who have the slimmest chance to unseat the Conservatives it seems crazy not to throw your weight behind whoever is best placed to unseat them, most likely Labour.

To quote David Sedaris, writing about Trump Vs Clinton:
I think of being on an airplane. The flight attendant comes down the aisle with her food cart and, eventually, parks it beside my seat. "Can I interest you in the chicken?" she asks. "Or would you prefer the platter of shit with bits of broken glass in it?" To be undecided in this election is to pause for a moment and then ask how the chicken is cooked.

That's how I feel when I see people complaining that Keir Starmer isn't their perfect Prime Minister.

Very much this.

A lot of people want to jump from one speeding train, onto another heading in the other direction.
Almost certainly disastrous.
Either the train stops in a safe station and everyone files across the platform in orderly fashion to the other train, which then sets off at a measured rate, or quite a few people are going to get hurt and even more will panic and run off in odd directions.
Even if the Tory train has ground to a halt ( I’m not sure it made it to the platform, or, better image, it managed to destroy half the platform as it crashed into the station), how many people would be willing to jump onto the Labour train if it’s already moving? Corbyn was a Casey Jones, runaway train, in the eyes of many. Starmer is the quiet, efficient, conductor, guiding people to their seats and helping lift their case onto the rack. He’s talking about the first few stations on the route and carefully not mentioning the final destination.

[monkoffunk]

I don’t like the Tory party, but what has Labour ever done for us?

Other than….

Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.
Low mortgage rates.
Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.
Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.
Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.
Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.
Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.
Employment is at its highest level ever.
Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.
85,000 more nurses.
32,000 more doctors.
Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.
Restored city-wide government to London.
Record number of students in higher education.
Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.
Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
£200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.
600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.
Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.
Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.
Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.
Banned fox hunting.
Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.
Free TV licences for over-75s.
Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.
Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
Free eye test for over 60s.
More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.
Free entry to national museums and galleries.
Overseas aid budget more than doubled.
Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.
Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.
Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

1997-2010

[andy popp]

I think this is correct; my expectations are indeed very low. I'm 30 and have never voted in an election, of any sort, where my preferred outcome won until a few weeks ago at the locals. I am fucking sick of it

This is my children, born in 1994 and 98. In many ways, it's even my experience - I've known only 13 years of Labour government in the 45 years since Thatcher won in May 1979 (I was lying in a hospital bed, listening to the news on the radio having just had my appendix out).

My daughter is a classic, super-progressive Gen Z, disgusted by Labour over Gaza, abandonment of green commitments etc., but she told me yesterday that she'll be voting for them. As I would too.

[Oldmanmatt]

I don’t like the Tory party, but what has Labour ever done for us?

Other than….

Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.
Low mortgage rates.
Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.
Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.
Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.
Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.
Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.
Employment is at its highest level ever.
Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.
85,000 more nurses.
32,000 more doctors.
Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.
Restored city-wide government to London.
Record number of students in higher education.
Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.
Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
£200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.
600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.
Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.
Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.
Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.
Banned fox hunting.
Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.
Free TV licences for over-75s.
Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.
Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
Free eye test for over 60s.
More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.
Free entry to national museums and galleries.
Overseas aid budget more than doubled.
Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.
Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.
Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

1997-2010

Yes, but apart from that, what have they ever done for us?

You are John Cleese and I claim my £10.

[ToxicBilberry]

Political will is necessary but so is currency, which we don't yet have in the quantities we need it.

I'm so puzzled as to what the thinking is behind this assertion. It would be great to have some steer as to where it fits within eg the alternative viewpoints sketched out in https://jwmason.org/slackwire/thirteen-questions-about-money/

Being an average person who has little nuanced understanding of politics, I'm trying to understand what your ideal political formula looks like - in a couple of sentences of rhetoric. For example, 'Bring back hanging and end migration!' or alternatively 'sustainability, equity and diversity! power to the people!'

Currently it all looks like sludge, and I think your average bloke would see it the same, if not in more extreme terms

[andy popp]

my priorities are economic stability, growth, and productivity (plus the environment [climate and energy] and housing, but we need the first bits to make the second bits happen - in fact they are interconnected)

I agree these are the right priorities, and so important to stress that a green transition is not only good in climate terms but also economically. They can (have to?) happen together.

[Oldmanmatt]

I think this is correct; my expectations are indeed very low. I'm 30 and have never voted in an election, of any sort, where my preferred outcome won until a few weeks ago at the locals. I am fucking sick of it

This is my children, born in 1994 and 98. In many ways, it's even my experience - I've known only 13 years of Labour government in the 45 years since Thatcher won in May 1979 (I was lying in a hospital bed, listening to the news on the radio having just had my appendix out).

My daughter is a classic, super-progressive Gen Z, disgusted by Labour over Gaza, abandonment of green commitments etc., but she told me yesterday that she'll be voting for them. As I would too.

Yup, mine too and at 18 voting for the first time. Absolutely voting Labour and reading Law because she wants to “fight back” but thinks waving a placard in the street isn’t going to cut it. Still seems fond, if occasionally a little patronising, of big bad capitalist Daddy…