[spidermonkey09]

Steady on Tony; think you'll find it was JB that actually initially said that might be a compromise solution in post #26!

[Tony]

There are a couple of very old pegs at the top (top in a sporty sense, end of the clean overhanging rock, where it transitions into a chossy easier angled groove) of EOTT. These are where the bolt was that I saw chopped . The bolt backed up the pegs which are now pretty poor. I think one has no eye and the other was shit.

This is nonsense. Here’s a tip: do not use these pegs (they’re probably ~50 years old). There are a couple of small wires in that area in good rock, use these (backed up to the perfectly good gear at the top) if you wanna top rope.

On a separate but semi-related topic, has EOTT had many on sights? Steve? Jacopo?

A more pertinent question is how many have tried these routes ground-up? It is 1 of about 3 E7s to reasonably ground up in the Peak District. It is 1 of 2 that could be done without any change in grade entirely without any in situ gear. There is no need for any in situ gear on any of the routes on that buttress. That is the most remarkable thing about those routes: hard but completely protectable climbing.

[Tony]

think you'll find it was JB that actually initially said that might be a compromise solution in post #26!

No, it was posited as an (potentially unpalatable) option by Jonboy, you suggested it was a good idea.

[spidermonkey09]

Yep, I still think that. Call me ignorant all you want. 

[Ed booth]

[quote author=Tony
This is nonsense. Here’s a tip: do not use these pegs (they’re probably ~50 years old). There are a couple of small wires in that area in good rock, use these (backed up to the perfectly good gear at the top) if you wanna top rope.
[/quote]
What is nonsense?
We must have a different assessment of good runners. The couple of small wires you mention didn’t jump out at me. I was lowered in by my partner and hung around looking to make a natural belay there and didn’t see much that inspired any confidence.
Similarly the gear on the top that you previously described as more than adequate , is in my opinion, not brilliant. Loads of heavily weathered cracks of exfoliating limestone.
I can see that you won’t agree with me so maybe this is a futile debate.

[ToxicBilberry]

To quote some writer on the matter of subtle beauty in nature - 'Greatness exists in the overlooked and inconspicuous details' or alternatively, why not turn the crag into the usual wankfest

[Tony]

What is nonsense?

Specifically:

The bolt backed up the pegs

I doubt anyone (sane) has used those pegs for more than 20 years. The placement of that bolt was nothing to do with backing up those ancient pegs. Hence what you wrote was nonsense.

I was lowered in by my partner … the gear on the top is in my opinion not brilliant. exfoliating limestone.

Err, so you’re clearly known for making well-informed and rational decisions then?! (Or you’re writing nonsense…)

[Tony]

Yep, I still think that. Call me ignorant all you want. 

Whilst you write things like the above, I think you do that pretty well for yourself. Cheers.

[abarro81]

It's funny that Tony is such a cunt on here, if he's who I think he is in real life he's perfectly nice 

[Nails]

He does seem to like chucking out insults rather than simply making a point. Nails (he of the Grand Delusion).

[Tony]

Replacing bad abseil pegs with stainless bolts makes perfect sense though. Can't any top-rope rig-up be backed up to such an abseil point?

There are no poor abseils anchors to replace. There is a very solid chain and maillon that’s been there for time immemorial which is set such that it is invisible from any ground based direction (without an extremely strong magnifying aid).

Top ropes without requiring fixed kit have been (and are) routinely rigged. I know the FAs of the harder routes/finishes on the buttress pre-date the bolt so the FA didn’t require any of this fixed gear.

[Sam R]

It's funny that Tony is such a cunt on here, if he's who I think he is in real life he's perfectly nice 

Conversely, I think he's a bit of cunt in real life but perfectly reasonable here. 

Seriously though, what is a bit cuntish is drilling bolts and leaving gear in situ contrary to agreed access agreements.

[Grady]

Requiring would be ascensionists of a harder route to climb an easier route in order to rig a top rope may lead to accelerated wear of the holds and gear placements on the easier route. (The effect being exaggerated the more popular and/or prone to sieges the hard route is).

If said easier route is good in its own right, seems a shame to expedite its degradation if another solution (such as a minimal bolt ladder on an unclimbable section) could be implemented.

Obviously all crags have their own subtleties and accepted practices, and change should be sought in the appropriate way for the venue.

I’m not familiar with the crag alluded to here so this is more of a general musing on purism vs “accessibility for preservation” than a proposed solution to this specific example.

[stone]

My impression is that easier Peak lime routes actually benefit from regular climbing. It clears off loose rock and prevents vegetation. A lot of the allure of the easiest ways up the pinnacle is a sort of mountaineering allure of achieving an inaccessible summit.

[andy moles]

I don't think a climber with 10 grades in hand going up a route 5 or 10 times is likely to contribute enough degradation to be worth mentioning, unless it was on very soft sandstone or something (which this isn't).

I had to solo the first pitch of a VS multiple times for a project that I climbed last year and I must say this did not even cross my mind as an issue, nor do I feel it should have now that it's been pointed out.

[SA Chris]

The route was first climbed well over 100 years ago, I think any wear to holds or placements on Peak Limestone has been since been long done.

[ToxicBilberry]

Requiring would be ascensionists of a harder route to climb an easier route in order to rig a top rope may lead to accelerated wear of the holds and gear placements on the easier route. (The effect being exaggerated the more popular and/or prone to sieges the hard route is).

If said easier route is good in its own right, seems a shame to expedite its degradation if another solution (such as a minimal bolt ladder on an unclimbable section) could be implemented.

Obviously all crags have their own subtleties and accepted practices, and change should be sought in the appropriate way for the venue.

I’m not familiar with the crag alluded to here so this is more of a general musing on purism vs “accessibility for preservation” than a proposed solution to this specific example.

Ultimately it’s an ideological debate, traditionalism vs progressivism. The traditionalists want it left alone and the progressives want to install an access ramp. Both sides provide arguments for and against their wishes, with the progressives currently spouting post hoc justifications for their actions. Personally being in the traditionalist camp, I believe it should be left alone and even to go to seed if no one climbs it. IMO the e9 was put up by a progressive as part of an odious business advertising campaign.

[Johnny Brown]

If you truly believe in a fairytale of 'we only do what the landowner has explicitly permitted following a formal request' then don't ever climb on the slate, and strip the Diamond access route tomorrow. Then relax in a warm glow of knowing you're righteously following the landowners' rules (oh what you really think Mostyn Estates want to know about and agree to a via ferrata on their land?!). Loads of other places where we just go and climb and place all sorts of fixed stuff without seeking explicit permission.. and hope it turns out ok.

It isn't really relevant here, as I said above, that this is the norm elsewhere. It isn't how it works here. And given that the landowner is national organisation, that practice of actually expecting the access agreement to be adhered wrt bolting to is likely to come to a crag near you in the next ten years. And it isn't because us access trad dad softies have negotiated a poor agreement, it's driven by environmental law which is very clear, and (despite Brexiters' hopes) doesn't look like it will be deleted.
 
It's also worth noting that the rigging here isn't being driven by anything like necessity for access - it's convenience largely driven by people working the routes alone. I don't think convenient solo top-roping is the benchmark for fixed gear anywhere else is it? Particularly where it also impacts the inn pinn experience for lower grade climbers.

JB lives in that far-off unsullied fantasy land known as The Unspoiled Trad Environment.

I don't live there but I do try to visit now and again. It's not a fantasy. Peak Lime, of course, is neither and I try to take a pragmatic view here particularly when I have my access hat on. Plus, unlike the protagonists, I'm not acting alone and try to get input from other perspectives before acting.

[Teaboy]

Surely the progressive thing to do would be to have a crack at it on-sight or at least ground up?

[ToxicBilberry]

That’s the ideal, but in practice the end result is always a move towards mediocrity

[northern yob]

I think a decent compromise is us following the very simple rules already in place as asked for by the land owner(who has every right to tell us to fuck off)! What is it with us as a group..? And our sense of entitlement and inability to follow simple rules, access is only going to become more of an issue, if we can’t do better, we deserve everything we get…

This, and arguments similar to this, are commonly heard in cases like this. To be clear I'm not in favour of antagonising those with a legal right to make life difficult for climbers. And I am in favour of access agreements where time and circumstance have arrived at this formal approach being the way to preserve climbing access - and this example seems like a place where not risking rocking the boat is the most sensible approach. (and request a few discreet very low profile 12mm glue-in clippy-stick access bolts to tidy up the pinnacle, preserve vegetation(?), and 'replace unsightly old fixed gear'...)

But be honest about the wider scene rather than make-believe. It's rarely as simple as: 'lets follow the rules'. We can pretend that climbing takes place according to landowners' rules if that's what suits our argument at the time, but climbing doesn't happen like that in reality.

If you truly believe in a fairytale of 'we only do what the landowner has explicitly permitted following a formal request' then don't ever climb on the slate, and strip the Diamond access route tomorrow. Then relax in a warm glow of knowing you're righteously following the landowners' rules (oh what you really think Mostyn Estates want to know about and agree to a via ferrata on their land?!). Loads of other places where we just go and climb and place all sorts of fixed stuff without seeking explicit permission.. and hope it turns out ok.

No coincidence that two people making a case against bolts here are JB and NY. JB lives in that far-off unsullied fantasy land known as The Unspoiled Trad Environment. I think NY probably often visits there on holiday  .

This doesn’t really deserve a reply…. But if I’m anything I’m a glutton for punishment so here goes.

As already mentioned and the way threads in general work, we are talking about a specific place so pontificating about what is the norm elsewhere isn’t bringing much to the table is it? Also mentioning what you think mine and JB’s world view is, seems at best like poking the bear either for fun(which I get) or because you like being a argumentative dick at times(I also get/am).

I can understand why you might think I’m possessed by the spirit of Ken, because I don’t often pipe up other than to sound like some kind of dinosaur, harping on about resisting progression or regression depending on your view.

Despite how I might come across I think you’ve really got a very skewed view of where I stand. I love headpointing and I like clipping bolts, I do however feel really strongly about preserving certain aspects of British climbing, I’m not anti bolt, I’m anti bolt at crucibles of adventure climbing, I’m certainly not anti bolt in the peak, I piped up because spidermonkeys decent compromise comment struck a nerve, access is going to become a really big deal in the future. I will admit I’m very much against the need for convenience people seem to want these days, and rocking the access boat because they can’t be arsed to put a bit of effort in is at best short sighted and at worst plain selfish.

I’m not someone whole likes rules let alone following them, and I’m fully aware how it works elsewhere.

I holiday everywhere…. In fairytales and in reality,I love it all.

[cheque]

This is what happens when you start giving trad routes sport grades isn’t it? 

[ToxicBilberry]

I think a decent compromise is us following the very simple rules already in place as asked for by the land owner(who has every right to tell us to fuck off)! What is it with us as a group..? And our sense of entitlement and inability to follow simple rules, access is only going to become more of an issue, if we can’t do better, we deserve everything we get…

This, and arguments similar to this, are commonly heard in cases like this. To be clear I'm not in favour of antagonising those with a legal right to make life difficult for climbers. And I am in favour of access agreements where time and circumstance have arrived at this formal approach being the way to preserve climbing access - and this example seems like a place where not risking rocking the boat is the most sensible approach. (and request a few discreet very low profile 12mm glue-in clippy-stick access bolts to tidy up the pinnacle, preserve vegetation(?), and 'replace unsightly old fixed gear'...)

But be honest about the wider scene rather than make-believe. It's rarely as simple as: 'lets follow the rules'. We can pretend that climbing takes place according to landowners' rules if that's what suits our argument at the time, but climbing doesn't happen like that in reality.

If you truly believe in a fairytale of 'we only do what the landowner has explicitly permitted following a formal request' then don't ever climb on the slate, and strip the Diamond access route tomorrow. Then relax in a warm glow of knowing you're righteously following the landowners' rules (oh what you really think Mostyn Estates want to know about and agree to a via ferrata on their land?!). Loads of other places where we just go and climb and place all sorts of fixed stuff without seeking explicit permission.. and hope it turns out ok.

No coincidence that two people making a case against bolts here are JB and NY. JB lives in that far-off unsullied fantasy land known as The Unspoiled Trad Environment. I think NY probably often visits there on holiday  .

This doesn’t really deserve a reply…. But if I’m anything I’m a glutton for punishment so here goes.

As already mentioned and the way threads in general work, we are talking about a specific place so pontificating about what is the norm elsewhere isn’t bringing much to the table is it? Also mentioning what you think mine and JB’s world view is, seems at best like poking the bear either for fun(which I get) or because you like being a argumentative dick at times(I also get/am).

I can understand why you might think I’m possessed by the spirit of Ken, because I don’t often pipe up other than to sound like some kind of dinosaur, harping on about resisting progression or regression depending on your view.

Despite how I might come across I think you’ve really got a very skewed view of where I stand. I love headpointing and I like clipping bolts, I do however feel really strongly about preserving certain aspects of British climbing, I’m not anti bolt, I’m anti bolt at crucibles of adventure climbing, I’m certainly not anti bolt in the peak, I piped up because spidermonkeys decent compromise comment struck a nerve, access is going to become a really big deal in the future. I will admit I’m very much against the need for convenience people seem to want these days, and rocking the access boat because they can’t be arsed to put a bit of effort in is at best short sighted and at worst plain selfish.

I’m not someone whole likes rules let alone following them, and I’m fully aware how it works elsewhere.

I holiday everywhere…. In fairytales and in reality,I love it all.

Why not get on with channeling the spirit of Ken and ditch all wooly BS? God knows we could do with it.