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The inevitable E grade thread (Read 18307 times)

Johnny Brown

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#50 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 12:08:33 pm
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I'd have thought that the vaguer grades of XS or HXS for sustained chop 4a or 4c would be more appropriate

I tend to think of XS/ HXS as being more suited to loose ledge shuffling, more like extreme versions of your 'E5 4a' approach suited to headstrong punters. And as I said above I'm very unsure of where the grade boundary lies.

Whereas our E4 4c pitch had more in common with Gogarth E5 5b like Death Trap - i.e. it's vertical, sustained proper climbing but you've very limited faith in either the holds or the protection. A proper trad E6 leader would have been fine, if perhaps slightly traumatised as I was. A headstrong E1 leader would either backed off or died.

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or a VS up high after a 7a boulder (

(Edit: you've added more context) Clearly this would never have been given an E grade at all, because to anyone doing the start it would be trivial. As it is, it isn't trivial, and people back off it even with pads, so it got E4.  E1 6a would suggest that the 6a is fall-offable but I would expect harder climbing at height than 'VS', but if it was dangerous 5b or 5c it would get more than E1 overall, so you can expect 5a ish I think. The grades are 'overall', they just cover a lot more variety than other systems.

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I get what you're saying with this, but

I'm not proposing any changes I'm just explaining how it already works, and always has done. The proof is in the guidebooks.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2024, 12:22:59 pm by Johnny Brown »

andy moles

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#51 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 12:23:08 pm

Whereas our E4 4c pitch had more in common with Gogarth E5 5b like Death Trap - i.e. it's vertical, sustained proper climbing but you've very limited faith in either the holds or the protection. A proper trad E6 leader would have been fine, if perhaps slightly traumatised as I was. A headstrong E1 leader would either backed off or died.


I'll take your word on this, I'm just finding the pitch in question quite hard to imagine!


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I'm not proposing any changes I'm just explaining how it already works, and always has done. The proof is in the guidebooks.

In some guidebooks, from a specific era, for particular areas! i.e. the period between the development of E grades and the proliferation of bouldering pads, on sedimentary outcrops in northern England...

Johnny Brown

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#52 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 12:28:50 pm
That doesn't include the sea cliffs, where there is just as much weirdness at the opposite end?

It's the same everywhere I've been in the Uk, but I did learn early on there was a variety of styles, and not to throw a hissy fit and claim the grades were 'broken' if I an E4 didn't suit me. Well I might have had some fits but I didn't claim the grades were broken.

I have tended to seek out uncoventional routes though, so was exposed to the breath and scope before my head got all swol from climbing big numbers.

abarro81

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#53 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 12:33:31 pm
Someone should have stuck that in a guide or something. I think I would have found it useful to know back when I climbed on grit quite a lot... Now you say it it does make some sense, but if you started climbing somewhere without many micro routes it's not obvious. I'm also not entirely sure that's how it's used round the country? I don't recall micro routes in Avon feeling like they used that system, but maybe I'm misremembering.

I think you're projecting or imagining when it comes to people throwing a fit about these grades. I recall people just treating them like a joke, because that's how they seem if you're used to normal grading :shrug:

andy moles

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#54 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 12:34:32 pm
I have tended to seek out uncoventional routes though

You probably are in a relatively small Venn overlap of specialties there, ankle-breaker grit soloing and seaside death choss.

Somebody's Fool

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#55 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 12:37:44 pm
They’re both five minutes from his house.

andy moles

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#56 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 01:08:39 pm
They’re both five minutes from his house.

Is his house bifurcated by a rupture in the fabric of space?  :-\

northern yob

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#57 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 01:17:42 pm
2nd home wanker….. in north wales too, I can feel another great debate coming on. 😂

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#58 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 01:25:20 pm
A plague in both his houses clearly.

remus

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#59 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 01:53:58 pm
Someone should have stuck that in a guide or something. I think I would have found it useful to know back when I climbed on grit quite a lot... Now you say it it does make some sense, but if you started climbing somewhere without many micro routes it's not obvious. I'm also not entirely sure that's how it's used round the country? I don't recall micro routes in Avon feeling like they used that system, but maybe I'm misremembering.

Handily most guides do include a few paragraphs on grades:

Quote from: BMC Roaches Guide 2009
The system of grading for routes in this volume is the traditional British style, a combination of adjectival and technical grades, and assumes the leader has a normal rack, including standard camming devices, nuts, slings, quickdraws etc. The adjectival grade is the first part of the grade, and attempts to give an overall sense of the difficulty of a climb. This will be influenced by many aspects.

Being a massive dweeb I've gone and checked a few other guides and they all include very similar wording (Rockfax eastern grit, CC South Devon, CC Dartmoor, The Sheffield-Stanage area 1970 reprint, Peak Limestone South 1987, Moorland Gritstone Chew Valley 1988, Derwent Valley 1981).

You could be forgiven for thinking the adjectival grade is widely understood to "give an overall sense of the difficulty of a climb".

SA Chris

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#60 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 02:10:12 pm
"attempt to" - which it does with reasonable success for 95%of the routes in the country. Yet everyone seems to be focus on the two tiny flat end of the bell curve. You know, the bell ends ;)

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#61 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 02:35:18 pm
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"The most useful/ popular modern grade would, I suppose be 7C(!)"
Agreed

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"So do we agree 'standard' E4 is around 5c/6a? So we are fine with going down to the 4c/5a grade in extreme cases - bold, sustained, loose, poor protection."
Again, agreed.
Not done any E4 4c's but done plenty of things that aren't too far off.  For those who haven't seen such things, then since we're talking hypotheticals, imagine kicking steps in an 80 degree slope of "rock" resembling the shifting sands on a sand dune with no gear and a pit of tigers underneath you and you'll get the idea.  There's plenty of stuff in the UK that's not that far off that hilariously.  Routes certainly doesn't need to have much in the way of technical rock climbing to feel like they are overall E4 or E6 or much harder.

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"But if we go up the same amount - to 6c/7a - it's somehow unacceptable? Why?"
Because for the E grade to actually have any use, it needs to be the overall grade of the route.  Which includes physical difficulty.  That works fine for the examples above when there's hardly any physical difficulty but huge amounts of other skills required and danger.  But if it's the overall grade of a route, then something that's Fr 9c can't ever be E4. Or something that's Fr8a for that matter.  Completely safe Fr8a cracks are overall considered overall to be E7.  For E7 to mean anything, then completely safe Fr8a shorter routes also need to be E7.  Giving them E4 completely undermines the foundation of what E grades are meant to represent.


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"Your E6 or 7 is a bizarre attempt to translate into some overall sport grade."
No, it really isn't.  It's an attempt to make E grades actually mean something and be used consistently.  And the only thing that makes sense for it to mean is the overall grade of the route.  Which includes the difficulty and the danger and everything else.  You're trying to eliminate or significantly reduce the importance of the physical difficulty bit on a particular subset of routes which undermines E grades entirely.  Just because that's how it's been historically doesn't make it a good idea. It's why there's still endless ridiculous debates about this subject, a little like the one we're currently having.


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"everyone seems to be focus on the two tiny flat end of the bell curve"
This same shit comes up time and time again for hard routes in the news, which is why people care.  Might be 2% of overall volume of routes, but it's the 2% that's often in the news and hence the routes people often talk about.


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"Is this a generational thing?"
You might have a couple of years on me, but not much more I don't think.


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"I really can’t get my head round why lots of people have such a problem with it or are against them"
Not got anything against them at all.  Precisely the opposite - I'm trying to defend them as I think that if used properly they are the best way to grade trad routes.
I'm just pointing out that they need to be used consistently to avoid all the criticism that gets thrown at them. 


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"The only issue I can see here is people who think of themselves as 'E4 climbers' might get their ego pricked"
No. The main issue as far as I'm concerned is that at the top end, hard trad grades in the news have become a joke, as noone can agree on what they are supposed to be representing.
Which makes the UK the laughing stock of the world when people can't agree whether something is E8 or E11 - ie: whether it should be world standard news, or something for a few people to go "nice one" to their mate in the pub.


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"E grade represents the overall difficulty, except when it doesn't, at which point it may not may not encompass the difficulty of the hard bit to some extent (but not a full extent, I'm still not clear on this) depending on whether the FA grew up in Pembroke or Sheffield. Clear?"
   :lol:  Indeed.


The Egraders were right in terms of their aims - ie: E grades could and should be a lot more consistent.  They just stratospherically messed up the implementation.
What they should have done was posted something about how E grades should and could be used consistently.
And then put their heads together and spent some time writing a proper graded list for all routes ever given E9 or harder.  That's the only way of actually sorting out hard trad grades and making them consistent, not some silly gimmick on a website.  And if they'd even started that on a piece of paper, they'd have realised that their translations were a million miles away from reality and would involve regrading the vast majority of routes in the UK. 


northern yob

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#62 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 02:57:11 pm
The reason why Egrades don’t work at the top end is because they are rarely applied objectively/properly, those at the top end have to contend with their ego’s, public opinion, sponsors etc etc  this is the case with all grades not just E grades! Sport climbs and boulders aren’t immune to downgrades/upgrades and people certainly don’t agree on them all. E grades give lots of info…. Sometimes I agree sometimes I don’t! Sport grades give less info… sometimes I agree sometimes I don’t. It’s all the same whatever the system.

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#63 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 03:03:57 pm
With sport routes and boulders, typically significant downgrades only happen when people find better beta.
The vast majority of people (at least those who travel to at least some extent) climbing at that level tend to roughly agree about grades when they've used the same beta (with obvious exceptions for height dependent stuff etc).

With UK trad routes people can climb exactly the same sequence and yet come up with a completely different grade as they are using a completely different grading system.  That's not sensible.  Sure sponsors, public opinion, beta and all the rest of it are always going to play a part, but sorting out what the numbers are actually meant to represent is a pre requisite to even bothering trying to assign something a number.

northern yob

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#64 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 05:09:09 pm
With sport routes and boulders, typically significant downgrades only happen when people find better beta.
The vast majority of people (at least those who travel to at least some extent) climbing at that level tend to roughly agree about grades when they've used the same beta (with obvious exceptions for height dependent stuff etc).

With UK trad routes people can climb exactly the same sequence and yet come up with a completely different grade as they are using a completely different grading system.  That's not sensible.  Sure sponsors, public opinion, beta and all the rest of it are always going to play a part, but sorting out what the numbers are actually meant to represent is a pre requisite to even bothering trying to assign something a number.

Have you got some examples of these vastly differing grades given to things in uk trad at the top end, or the bottom end for that matter??

Beyond james Pearson who has himself admitted he got it extremely wrong, I can’t come up with anything that’s been savagely downgraded/up graded you talked of E8-E11 up thread…. From my knowledge just like bouldering and sport climbing, there aren’t many huge variations, even taking into account the ease of getting extra publicity by over inflating trad grades (due to less likelihood of repeats) this is normal with any system.. like I said it’s not science.

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#65 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 06:39:43 pm
Well, there's the obvious longer ones - Walk of Life, The Long Hope Route, Muy Caliente etc, but I'd agree that for the most part that's for very different reasons, and not really what we're talking about.

In the context of this discussion, I was more thinking of, well, pretty much every highball esque route I can think of.  Think people have just been using WSS and Careless Torque etc as examples that most people have tried or done and so know something about.  But if people can't agree whether Careless should be E6 or E8, or WSS should be E4 or E6, even when they use exactly the same sequence and completely agree about the physical difficulty, then I think it's hard to argue that everything is fine.  And it's also not hard in that context to see how something like The Promise or various highbally things of Francos, could get such different grades from different people (and yes pads also come into the picture obviously).

Franco seems to think the E grade is so broken he's attempted to create his own grading system.  Dave Mac never graded Echo Wall, which I don't know, but I'm guessing wasn't a Sharma esque snub at grades in general, but more that he felt things were all over the show and giving E11 or E12 or whatever didn't mean much until everyone was agreed on how the grading system should actually work.

I do think there's something resembling a coherent system forming finally towards the top end, and whether it sticks or not, perhaps James Pearson giving Bon Voyage E12 is a good marker on a well accessible and likely popular route to compare other things to.  Although as you say with these things often not seeing a lot of repeats, it perhaps takes longer to sort out than would otherwise be the case, and so no doubt there'll be lots of adjustments down the line. How many of the current E10s and 11s are actually overall harder than old skool E9's like Face Mecca, Widdop Wall or Dangermouse?  I guess we might know in a few decades.

So, perhaps I over egged it slightly above.
But, really the beef is just that as has been evidenced by this thread, various people who've been in the climbing world their entire lives still can't agree what the E grade is meant to represent.  Which is pretty ridiculous.

northern yob

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#66 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 07:05:06 pm
Well, there's the obvious longer ones - Walk of Life, The Long Hope Route, Muy Caliente etc, but I'd agree that for the most part that's for very different reasons, and not really what we're talking about.

In the context of this discussion, I was more thinking of, well, pretty much every highball esque route I can think of.  Think people have just been using WSS and Careless Torque etc as examples that most people have tried or done and so know something about.  But if people can't agree whether Careless should be E6 or E8, or WSS should be E4 or E6, even when they use exactly the same sequence and completely agree about the physical difficulty, then I think it's hard to argue that everything is fine.  And it's also not hard in that context to see how something like The Promise or various highbally things of Francos, could get such different grades from different people (and yes pads also come into the picture obviously).

Franco seems to think the E grade is so broken he's attempted to create his own grading system.  Dave Mac never graded Echo Wall, which I don't know, but I'm guessing wasn't a Sharma esque snub at grades in general, but more that he felt things were all over the show and giving E11 or E12 or whatever didn't mean much until everyone was agreed on how the grading system should actually work.

I do think there's something resembling a coherent system forming finally towards the top end, and whether it sticks or not, perhaps James Pearson giving Bon Voyage E12 is a good marker on a well accessible and likely popular route to compare other things to.  Although as you say with these things often not seeing a lot of repeats, it perhaps takes longer to sort out than would otherwise be the case, and so no doubt there'll be lots of adjustments down the line. How many of the current E10s and 11s are actually overall harder than old skool E9's like Face Mecca, Widdop Wall or Dangermouse?  I guess we might know in a few decades.

So, perhaps I over egged it slightly above.
But, really the beef is just that as has been evidenced by this thread, various people who've been in the climbing world their entire lives still can't agree what the E grade is meant to represent.  Which is pretty ridiculous.

As already mentioned above… they are pretty much irrelevant for any highball, mats, font grades etc etc

As for Franco…. I’ll defer on if he’s the messiah or not…..

For me it’s a misconception that E grades are broken, they work actually quite well and convey more information about the climb than most other systems… there isn’t a perfect system and I’ve yet to see any proof that anything else would work any better. With regard dangermouse, widdop wall the same thing would occur regardless of the system, some things are graded harsh some aren’t… your Gibson is balanced out be a Gresham… If you truly believe people who have been climbing their whole lives would suddenly agree on the grade of things if another system was used, I think your smoking crack!!

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#67 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 08:57:40 pm
"attempt to" - which it does with reasonable success for 95%of the routes in the country. Yet everyone seems to be focus on the two tiny flat end of the bell curve. You know, the bell ends ;)
Very good  :2thumbsup:

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#68 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 09:13:29 pm


As for Franco…. I’ll defer on if he’s the messiah or not…..

He’s not the messiah, he’s a very naughty boy with a limited repertoire

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#69 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 09:46:07 pm
Someone should have stuck that in a guide or something. I think I would have found it useful to know back when I climbed on grit quite a lot... Now you say it it does make some sense, but if you started climbing somewhere without many micro routes it's not obvious. I'm also not entirely sure that's how it's used round the country? I don't recall micro routes in Avon feeling like they used that system, but maybe I'm misremembering.

Handily most guides do include a few paragraphs on grades:

Quote from: BMC Roaches Guide 2009
The system of grading for routes in this volume is the traditional British style, a combination of adjectival and technical grades, and assumes the leader has a normal rack, including standard camming devices, nuts, slings, quickdraws etc. The adjectival grade is the first part of the grade, and attempts to give an overall sense of the difficulty of a climb. This will be influenced by many aspects.

Being a massive dweeb I've gone and checked a few other guides and they all include very similar wording (Rockfax eastern grit, CC South Devon, CC Dartmoor, The Sheffield-Stanage area 1970 reprint, Peak Limestone South 1987, Moorland Gritstone Chew Valley 1988, Derwent Valley 1981).

You could be forgiven for thinking the adjectival grade is widely understood to "give an overall sense of the difficulty of a climb".

No Remus, the only explanation is that we all thought it worked like that because we want it to be like sport grades. Especially those authors of the 1970s guide  :lol:

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#70 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 03, 2024, 11:05:09 pm
I’ve only bothered to read half this thread, but basically JB and Northern Yob are correct.  But then maybe I only think that cos I’m squarely in this Venn overlap:

You probably are in a relatively small Venn overlap of specialties there, ankle-breaker grit soloing and seaside death choss.

The best two types of climbing right?

andy moles

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#71 Re: The inevitable grade thread
May 04, 2024, 07:18:49 am
The best two types of climbing right?

I'm pretty conventional myself, I quite like multiple pitches of immaculate flowing climbing up compelling features on impeccable rock (I know,  :yawn: right?), but each to their own.


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#72 Re: The inevitable E grade thread
May 04, 2024, 09:40:57 am
Have attempted a belated thread split since, bafflingly, shark seems more focused on trivial things like the future of the BMC and a trip to Mingulay. Apologies to anyone whose bon mots were accidentally left in the car park as we drove off.


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#73 Re: The inevitable E grade thread
May 04, 2024, 09:58:34 am
 :dance1:

That's a dank Saturday sorted then.

andy moles

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#74 Re: The inevitable E grade thread
May 04, 2024, 10:51:01 am
Have attempted a belated thread split

Heavy handed if you ask me, there has definitely been a theme of Significant Repetition in this

 

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