[mrjonathanr]

I’d love to think education is the answer, but teenagers are not the most stable or receptive audience…

It’s not the single, magic bullet-type answer, but it’s going to be cheaper in the long run than ceding to ignorance. And it doesn’t start and stop at the school gate. We are all involved in educating each other and I thank this forum for that; it’s a stimulating place, with some thought provoking posters (thanks to Stone for starting this thread).

There’s no single answer, but schools have a role play. I’d say formal education is a key component of a successful society, which is why the decline of curriculum time for arts and creative subjects since 2010 is such a loss. Creative and critical thinking is essential in shaping a healthy society.

[mrjonathanr]

Tony, that rather depends on your understanding of ‘confrontational’. Asserting the validity of others’ rights to be different; active tolerance, let’s say. That was my reading and a position I’d agree with.

[andy popp]

Meanwhile, on American university campuses, the right to protest (let alone counter protest) appears to dying a rapid death.

[cowboyhat]

There was also a piece on C4 news - where they found phone footage of bloke trying to cross the march on at least two other occasions and being asked not to by two different police officers. It appears that his behavior was being observed by a plain clothes officer and when G was challenged about this and denied it - said officer piped up to contradict him.

Bit of a weird flex; I edited that VT.

The episode was plainly a stunt; one that he would argue serves to draw attention to the very real situation such as Mike is describing.

Jewish colleagues, notable very serious journalists, tend to think that it doesn't help at all and fans the flames. I listened to a couple of big rants about his antics and those state funded type organisations that don't represent the views of most jewish Londoners.

I wonder if it does help; keeping the wider antisemitism in the public eye...? Aside from this informed conversation most people just see the initial headlines.


In the footage there are Jewish people who were on the Free GAza march, trying to help the police/ intervene with the stunt because this bloke is a widely known character. Other footage included some pretty full on vitriol constantly being shouted at the official counter protest; someone mentioned the 'shame on you' more innocent end of it. Unusually the police come out of this whole thing really well.

As Andy points out, things are better here.

[stone]

The only thing that protects the whole world from descending into a Gaza type nightmare is the extent to which we stand up for neighbours who aren't like us.

Just to point out: this is a completely specious statement. It actually makes exceptionally little sense in the Israel-Palestine (inc. Gaza) context.
I presume you mean something more like “tolerance”. But that’s not what you wrote.

What I mean is that it is not OK to turn a blind eye if we see someone being harassed, especially if we are part of eg a march and the abuse is being perpetrated by fellow marchers. We have to call it out and confront it.

Perhaps your point is that is being intolerant of racist abusers and not respecting the validity of their racism or something. Well yes it is and yes that is what we must do.

[Tony S]

Perhaps your point is that is being intolerant of racist abusers and not respecting the validity of their racism or something.

Er, no, manifestly that was not my point and I’ll sue you for libel should you wish to write that more definitively- I jest.

What I mean is that it is not OK to turn a blind eye if we see someone being harassed, especially if we are part of eg a march and the abuse is being perpetrated by fellow marchers. We have to call it out and confront it.

And my point was, in daily life this -sadly- happens all the time because: people don’t want to speak out or people feel unable to speak out (due to power imbalance or intimidation or wanting to belong, etc, etc) or people expect someone else to speak out.

In that procession, I expect most people would not agree with insulting behaviour but they may not have felt able or willing to confront it. They may also have felt intimidated.

Can you genuinely say you’ve never turned a blind eye to anything, ever? If not, you’ve either led a very righteous life indeed or you’re very blind.

[abarro81]

Other footage included some pretty full on vitriol constantly being shouted at the official counter protest; someone mentioned the 'shame on you' more innocent end of it.

For those of us who are ill informed, what do the counter protestors 'want' (notionally, within the confines of them being lots of people wanting different things etc.)? If the protesters notionally want ceasefire, do the counter protestors want IDF to keep smashing civilians or want anyone who supports ceasefire or thinks IDF and Netanyahu are c*nts to STFU? If they just want antisemites to STFU it seems like a pity that it ends up as "protest" and "counter protest" when lots of people probably agree with both 

[stone]

Perhaps some counter-protestors want unwavering support for a military solution to Hamas. -to ensure that Hamas can never again mount an attack -and that people in Gaza will be frightened off supporting a similar organisation in the future.

Like I've said, I think that is a misguided and forlorn course to attempt, that would only lead to worsening tragedy all round. But it isn't so far from what our government (with support from the opposition) is standing behind.

[Tony S]

The episode was plainly a stunt.

…

Other footage included some pretty full on vitriol constantly being shouted at the official counter protest

Part of the difficulty is that individual does routinely claim their actions are as a “private individual” yet they run a campaign group and their private actions frequently appear to be filmed by people in an entourage.

They do not claim on these occasions to be “demonstrating”. They are, therefore, not authorised to demonstrate and they have not discussed policing arrangements and other security and crowd management arrangements.

There are often official parallel-demonstrations. (As abarro81 points out, it’s not clear if it’s sensible to call these “counter-demonstrations”; probably more anti-specific-demonstration demonstrations?) At these, the police do attend and they have investigated incidents of hate crime, intimidation, etc. (Even if there are not arrests, people may be warned and/or records made on the Police National Computer.)

[Will Hunt]

Perhaps some counter-protestors want unwavering support for a military solution to Hamas... But it isn't so far from what our government (with support from the opposition) is standing behind.

I'm not sure you can consider the government's motivations without noting that it isn't just Hamas that threatens Israel, but a bunch of other actors in the region who do things that we don't like, such as disrupting shipping through the Gulf of Aden and the Red Sea, and thus the Suez Canal.

I'm not writing this to make any case for or against supplying Israel with arms, just to point out that if you don't consider the wider geopolitics of the region then you won't understand our government's position.

[stone]

What I mean is that it is not OK to turn a blind eye if we see someone being harassed, especially if we are part of eg a march and the abuse is being perpetrated by fellow marchers. We have to call it out and confront it.

And my point was, in daily life this -sadly- happens all the time because: people don’t want to speak out or people feel unable to speak out (due to power imbalance or intimidation or wanting to belong, etc, etc) or people expect someone else to speak out.

In that procession, I expect most people would not agree with insulting behaviour but they may not have felt able or willing to confront it. They may also have felt intimidated.

I'm sticking by saying they should be ashamed of themselves for not having the courage to confront it.

[Tony S]

I'm sticking by saying they should be ashamed of themselves for not having the courage to confront it.

“Appalled” and “shame” are strong remarks from a person who calls for tolerance and was not present and has never participated in a procession.

Humility and understanding, anyone?

[seankenny]

Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but Stone is calling for a zero tolerance approach to racism. Last time I checked that was a good thing.

[Tony S]

Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but Stone is calling for a zero tolerance approach to racism. Last time I checked that was a good thing.

No sean, he’s appalled by people who do not necessarily condone insulting behaviour but did not actively intervene. He says they should be ashamed of themselves.

Trite comments are attractive but usually inaccurate.

[seankenny]

He said he doesn’t want to see “harassment and abuse” at peace marches, and says people who accept it should be ashamed of themselves. It does seem to me that in context of this discussion “abuse” is not just political but also strays into the religious and ethnic. In which case, Stone is calling for a zero tolerance approach to racism.

As an aside, how intimidating can marchers be before it stops being a “peace march”?

[Mike Highbury]

For those of us who are ill informed, what do the counter protestors 'want' (notionally, within the confines of them being lots of people wanting different things etc.)? If the protesters notionally want ceasefire, do the counter protestors want IDF to keep smashing civilians or want anyone who supports ceasefire or thinks IDF and Netanyahu are c*nts to STFU? If they just want antisemites to STFU it seems like a pity that it ends up as "protest" and "counter protest" when lots of people probably agree with both 

There's been a consistent message that they want the hostages released. That's it.

[Tony S]

It does seem to me that in context of this discussion “abuse” is not just political but also strays into the religious and ethnic.

That may be your reality Sean, but Stone specifically refers to the participants of this procession relating specifically to the widely publicised incident. Stating that those participants in the procession who did not actively intervene should be ashamed. As I’ve amply illustrated it is not clear whether that particular insulting behaviour was, in fact, racist.

It was not a general point that people should be ashamed if they do not intervene when they witness racism. Though, as I’ve listed above, there are human factors which may explain why this does not always happen.

Zero tolerance (of anything) is a nice idea but seldom realistic to achieve.

[stone]

I've just heard a really interesting BBC R4 program where Anwar Akhtar interviews (amongst others) protestors and counter-protestors in Leeds University. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001zk1s

[mrjonathanr]

The Guardian reports that John Woodcock’s ‘independent’ report on protest groups will recommend proscribing Just Stop Oil and Palestine Action.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/17/government-adviser-on-disruptive-protest-accused-of-conflict-of-interest

No doubt the curbing of these groups will be welcomed by BP and the arms manufacturer Leonardo, both clients of the PR firm Purpose Business Coakition, which he chairs.

Similarly, Glencore (mining, coal) and Enwell Energy may well welcome the restriction of these groups’ activities. Woodcock is a paid adviser at Rud Pedersen Public Affairs, another lobbying firm, which acts for both companies.

How much longer will we have to suffer this damaging and corrupt administration?

[dunnyg]

Was a labour MP back in the day, so probably quite a lot longer.

[stone]

Was a labour MP back in the day, so probably quite a lot longer.

Woodcock was one of the tranche of ex-Labour anti-Corbyn MPs given Peerages by Boris Johnson.

I guess he perfectly represents the administrative continuity we'll see   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Woodcock,_Baron_Walney