[Mike Highbury]

On Gideon Falter there was was an ex superintendent on the TV this morning defending the Lawrence family concerns. He also mentioned it's worth watching the full news clip on Sky news. Gideon had a camera crew ready and was trying to cross the path of the March itself. The superintendent was clear the Jewish comments were totally unacceptable but Gideon doesn't seem to be quite what he claimed.

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104

Essential viewing to get the full context. I think the police in that footage are being the adults in the room and look calm and polite. Of course he has a right of freedom of expression of faith, and to wear whatever he wants and go where he wants. But compare with a normal weekend afternoon up and down the country when rowdy opposing tribes of football fans are escorted by police in an effort to try to retain the peace, and not allow potentially volatile crowds to antagonise each other to the point of violence... we don't hear much about self-important football fans claiming they're being victimised by not being allowed their freedom to freely walk into an emotionally-charged crowd of people who may not like you very much, risking their own safety and those of the people who would inevitably have to try to sort it out following an inflammation. And then complaining that the police aren't keeping them safe by allowing public order to breakdown because of their lemming-like fondness for a confrontation with reality.

He's acting like a man-baby. Says it all that now the fuller picture has emerged that he claims he's now being victim-blamed. He has 'want-to-be-victim-of-injustice' stamped all over his core based on that footage.

There was also a piece on C4 news - where they found phone footage of Gideon F trying to cross the march on at least two other occasions and being asked not to by two different police officers. It appears that his behavior was being observed by a plain clothes officer and when G was challenged about this and denied it - said officer piped up to contradict him.

Whatever one may think about GF, a point remains that the marches are not safe places for Jews (nor Iranians) who do not join in with the slogans. The police know this and that is why they police away counter-protesters who insist on placing themselves in the march.

I imagine that GF was seeking to illustrate this. And even if he wasn't I don't really care bc the point still stands.

I'm sure that people are aware that London has become a less safe place for Jews, generally. I was almost destroyed in the Edgware Road yesterday (which is at the Marble Arch end of Oxford St) as I left synagogue yesterday. Like GF I would have been easy to identify, kippah and tallit bag, no camera crew just a wife and sister.

I appreciate that it is the first time that it's been quite so hostile; I've been going to synagogue there for decades and this has never happened before. That said, there's usually 10 police around premises at kicking out time but first day Pesach isn't the best attended service.

[Tony]

a point remains that the marches are not safe places for Jews (nor Iranians) who do not join in with the slogans. The police know this and that is why they police away counter-protesters who insist on placing themselves in the march.

Err, I think there is a considerable difference between “not join[ing] in” and counter-protest. What is evidenced by the police’s response (as was ever thus) is that it’s usually a bad idea to have a large number of people (one one side or both sides) who hold opposing views, both demonstrating these views, to come together.

[Tony]

Rosa Park's act was also staged political theatre. She is rightly seen as a hero.

Rosa Parks had no recourse to (edit: legal) protest.

A procession in London (and elsewhere in the UK) requires organisers to inform the police (and others). If other groups desired to (counter-) protest, this is often facilitated (witness NI marches), but elsewhere.

[andy popp]

Rosa Park's act was also staged political theatre. She is rightly seen as a hero.

Rosa Parks had no recourse to (edit: legal) protest.

The comparison is a poor one for all kinds of reasons.

[abarro81]

a point remains that the marches are not safe places for Jews (nor Iranians) who do not join in with the slogans. The police know this and that is why they police away counter-protesters who insist on placing themselves in the march.

Err, I think there is a considerable difference between “not join[ing] in” and counter-protest. What is evidenced by the police’s response (as was ever thus) is that it’s usually a bad idea to have a large number of people (one one side or both sides) who hold opposing views, both demonstrating these views, to come together.

Quite. I imagine most protests are not safe feeling places for counter protestors. I wouldn't feel safe going to a pro-X demo as an anti-X person or vice versa, whether X is to do with Gaza, immigration, lockdowns, animal testing etc. I imagine there are some subjects that this wouldnt be true for, probably less "life and death", maybe public sector pay or something, though it would probably still be a sensible idea to keep any sides apart as far as possible.

[Will Hunt]

I think maybe Mike's point is that even Jews who are out protesting against the war in Gaza don't feel safe if they don't join in with things like, say, "from the river to the sea..." (I certainly wouldn't join in with that; I'm not Jewish).

My brother lives in London and some people were celebrating in the streets in the wake of 7th October. He's also shared some graffiti that appeared in his local park: a spray-painted star of David with the word "scum" underneath.
Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".

[mark20]

Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".

the guy who made the stickers (but didn’t necessarily place them) is now in prison for 2 years
So the CPS at least take this sort of thing very seriously

[Tony]

I think maybe Mike's point is…

I think your and Mike’s points both conflate legitimate peaceful protest with bigoted and/or antisemitic behaviour.

There are always opportunistic people with unsavoury/offensive/illegal views who will try pervert a legitimate movement. These people don’t disappear by banning protests. You also have to weigh up the pros and cons of banning protests. It’s a pretty slippery slope to authoritarianism.

I would also highlight the very small number of arrests made at these protests relative to the number of protesters. (There are arguments that there have been too few arrests but, even multiplying by 10 is still small numbers.)

[Oldmanmatt]

I think maybe Mike's point is that even Jews who are out protesting against the war in Gaza don't feel safe if they don't join in with things like, say, "from the river to the sea..." (I certainly wouldn't join in with that; I'm not Jewish).

My brother lives in London and some people were celebrating in the streets in the wake of 7th October. He's also shared some graffiti that appeared in his local park: a spray-painted star of David with the word "scum" underneath.
Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".

I’m fucking done with extremists of all stripes.
Protesting or fighting for basic freedoms and simple human rights? Crack on, I’m with you.
Rosa, wasn’t advocating the genocide or oppression of others, only the obvious injustice of segregation. Aka, protesting for basic human rights and freedoms.
Any right minded person can see the Oct 7th was wrong, just as the same person should see the subsequent response in the same light.
I work with a Palestinian who is ardently anti-Hummus (for the Google bots, I think he enjoys crushed Chickpeas). I know plenty of Muslims who are passionately anti-religious extremism, despite being devout.
Aside: I traveled to Amsterdam last Nov with an Egyptian friend, who became vocal and (frankly) embarrassingly confrontational, with some Dutch Muslims at immigration, because of how they were dressed and their obviously strict attitude to Islam. Arguing with them about whether theirs was a true interpretation of the Koran. Then endured a long rant about how “these people” discredit his entire religion and the people of the middle East in the taxi to our hotel.
I’ve heard all kinds of different opinions from Muslims regarding Israel and Palestine. Many that surprised me.
There is obviously a huge difference between various groups of Israelis, with the current situation massively protested there.
I’m becoming an anti-extremist, extremist…
(That’s a weak joke, not an actual position).
Fed up with idiots who think extreme acts will solve anything. They just make things worse and make resolution a pipe dream and the lives of ordinary people miserable.
Ultimately, idiots who provoke confrontation are just handing ammunition to those who would like to see all forms of protest eliminated. I absolutely draw a line between legitimate protest against injustice and advocating for discrimination or violence against A.N.Other group.

[mark20]

There are always opportunistic people with unsavoury/offensive/illegal views

Sorry to be pedantic here, but I’m pretty sure it is (currently..) legal to hold any view, just not always to publically write or say it , or make stickers

[Tony]

There are always opportunistic people with unsavoury/offensive/illegal views

Sorry to be pedantic here, but I’m pretty sure it is (currently..) legal to hold any view, just not always to publically write or say it , or make stickers

It was shorthand but since you seem to have understood the  point being made I think I need not add more.

FYI: it is illegal to incite hatred and there all sorts of public order offences around protests, and various civil matters around defamation, slander, etc, etc, etc

[Will Hunt]

Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".

the guy who made the stickers (but didn’t necessarily place them) is now in prison for 2 years
So the CPS at least take this sort of thing very seriously

Ah, that's excellent! I hadn't realised this had happened. That is indeed the organisation that had planted the stickers and I was pleased at the time that the police did attend and look for evidence (they looked for prints and checked CCTV).

Regarding my previous post I wasn't really making a point, just trying to add some extra weight to Mike's point that Jews may have very good reason to feel less safe in the UK than they've felt in a long time. I've read the thread but not felt compelled to respond as don't think I have much to add. I broadly agree with a right to counter-protest but if that's going to involve intentionally provoking the other side to do you harm then the police have a job to prevent that.

I did think that Stone's comment in the OP about "standing up to the mob" was daft. Who decides who is the mob? I think the EDL are a mob, some people will think that Extinction Rebellion/Just Stop Oil/people protesting the Iraq war are/were a mob. Every peaceful protest is somebody else's mob.

[jwi]

very late to the party, but are you guys debating weather it is a good idea to have separate entries for the manchester united and liverpool ultras berfore the match, and to let the police enforce the separation? It is.

[mrjonathanr]

I'm sure that people are aware that London has become a less safe place for Jews, generally. I was almost destroyed in the Edgware Road yesterday (which is at the Marble Arch end of Oxford St) as I left synagogue yesterday. Like GF I would have been easy to identify, kippah and tallit bag, no camera crew just a wife and sister.

That’s grim, sorry to read this.

[stone]

I'm sure that people are aware that London has become a less safe place for Jews, generally. I was almost destroyed in the Edgware Road yesterday (which is at the Marble Arch end of Oxford St) as I left synagogue yesterday. Like GF I would have been easy to identify, kippah and tallit bag, no camera crew just a wife and sister.
I appreciate that it is the first time that it's been quite so hostile; I've been going to synagogue there for decades and this has never happened before. That said, there's usually 10 police around premises at kicking out time but first day Pesach isn't the best attended service.

Mike, I am appalled that you were subjected to that. Solidarity to you and to anyone else having to put up with that.

Your experience makes me much more sympathetic towards GF's demonstration. Evidently he wasn't provoking something that otherwise wouldn't be there (that was what I had ignorantly presumed). Rather he was revealing what you've had to put up with.

For people saying my Rosa Park comparison is bogus, I'm not sure it is. GF was clumsy in that he was being annoying in walking against the flow of marchers. But if GF had just been walking along and had been harassed (as Mike and his family were) then I think that would have been appalling and a cause for soul searching by all of us.

Like I said, I haven't been on a march ever, but I have manned a "justice for Palestinians" street stall a couple of times. I would have remonstrated with any marchers if I saw them harassing Mike. I think it is shameful that that wasn't the overwhelming response of marchers when Mike was harassed.

[Tony]

makes me much more sympathetic towards GF's demonstration. Evidently he wasn't provoking something that otherwise wouldn't be there (that was what I had ignorantly presumed).

Judging by the timings, I don’t believe Mike’s (terrible) experience -on Monday- was related to any authorised procession.

The antagonising person to whom you refer, was not assaulted, nor were they the recipient of any hateful speech, etc. on that well publicised day. A police officer in a long conversation with them, used an ill-advised phrase/reason, and the police more generally prevented them from (repeatedly attempting to) counter-protesting within the procession.

The person to which you refer, could have organised and registered their intention to have a procession against the unacceptable abuse and harassment being experienced by the Jewish community (and the Met Police’s response, that appears to be their issue). That may have been facilitated elsewhere. Instead they sought to conflate two issues: pro-Palestinian support and anti- harassment of Jewish people in the UK (especially London). Two issues which, I’m sure, are simultaneously supported by many people.

[Wellsy]

I think maybe Mike's point is that even Jews who are out protesting against the war in Gaza don't feel safe if they don't join in with things like, say, "from the river to the sea..." (I certainly wouldn't join in with that; I'm not Jewish).

My brother lives in London and some people were celebrating in the streets in the wake of 7th October. He's also shared some graffiti that appeared in his local park: a spray-painted star of David with the word "scum" underneath.
Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".

I’m fucking done with extremists of all stripes.
Protesting or fighting for basic freedoms and simple human rights? Crack on, I’m with you.
Rosa, wasn’t advocating the genocide or oppression of others, only the obvious injustice of segregation. Aka, protesting for basic human rights and freedoms.
Any right minded person can see the Oct 7th was wrong, just as the same person should see the subsequent response in the same light.
I work with a Palestinian who is ardently anti-Hummus (for the Google bots, I think he enjoys crushed Chickpeas). I know plenty of Muslims who are passionately anti-religious extremism, despite being devout.
Aside: I traveled to Amsterdam last Nov with an Egyptian friend, who became vocal and (frankly) embarrassingly confrontational, with some Dutch Muslims at immigration, because of how they were dressed and their obviously strict attitude to Islam. Arguing with them about whether theirs was a true interpretation of the Koran. Then endured a long rant about how “these people” discredit his entire religion and the people of the middle East in the taxi to our hotel.
I’ve heard all kinds of different opinions from Muslims regarding Israel and Palestine. Many that surprised me.
There is obviously a huge difference between various groups of Israelis, with the current situation massively protested there.
I’m becoming an anti-extremist, extremist…
(That’s a weak joke, not an actual position).
Fed up with idiots who think extreme acts will solve anything. They just make things worse and make resolution a pipe dream and the lives of ordinary people miserable.
Ultimately, idiots who provoke confrontation are just handing ammunition to those who would like to see all forms of protest eliminated. I absolutely draw a line between legitimate protest against injustice and advocating for discrimination or violence against A.N.Other group.

Broadly I'd agree with you but I would say that part of the issue is the definition of extremism and how some actors look to use that to influence the narrative. For example, "Free Palestine" is a statement which to the Israeli government and it's supporters is extremist, antisemitic etc. For others it is an eminently sensible and moral thing to state and support. I think that saying, for example, that the UK shouldn't sell arms to a fascistic Israeli gov is perfectly reasonable. Practically and morally how does it benefit us! Suggest that to the Israeli ambassador to the UK and I suspect you'll be labelled something along the lines of extremist. And as Will says, we get "The Woke Mob" chucked around now. To Suella going out on these marches basically makes you an extremist.

This comes along in lots of other areas too, not just this one. So yeah I do broadly agree but also I'm cautious of statements which
appear like basic common sense really but then get muddy when you ask who says what is extremism?

[stone]

makes me much more sympathetic towards GF's demonstration. Evidently he wasn't provoking something that otherwise wouldn't be there (that was what I had ignorantly presumed).

Judging by the timings, I don’t believe Mike’s (terrible) experience -on Monday- was related to any authorised procession.

The antagonising person to whom you refer, was not assaulted, nor were they the recipient of any hateful speech, etc. on that well publicised day. A police officer in a long conversation with them, used an ill-advised phrase/reason, and the police more generally prevented them from (repeatedly attempting to) counter-protesting within the procession.

The person to which you refer, could have organised and registered their intention to have a procession against the unacceptable abuse and harassment being experienced by the Jewish community (and the Met Police’s response, that appears to be their issue). That may have been facilitated elsewhere. Instead they sought to conflate two issues: pro-Palestinian support and anti- harassment of Jewish people in the UK (especially London). Two issues which, I’m sure, are simultaneously supported by many people.

The transcript at https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104 says:

As well as chants of "Palestine will be free" there were also shouts of "shame on you" and "scum".

On what basis was it OK for them to shout "shame on you" and "scum"?

Are you claiming that was purely to do with GF walking against the flow of marchers or something?

My interpretation is that the people shouting "shame on you" and "scum" were doing so because they were blaming anyone wearing a kippah for the horrors in Gaza. It is so wrong to do that -don't you agree?

It is not enough to personally not view random British Jews as being to blame for Gaza. What appals me is that fellow marchers didn't step in and remonstrate with those who were shouting such abuse.

The only thing that protects the whole world from descending into a Gaza type nightmare is the extent to which we stand up for neighbours who aren't like us.

[mrjonathanr]

The only thing that protects the whole world from descending into a Gaza type nightmare is the extent to which we stand up for neighbours who aren't like us.

Well said, Stone.

[Mike Highbury]

I'm sure that people are aware that London has become a less safe place for Jews, generally. I was almost destroyed in the Edgware Road yesterday (which is at the Marble Arch end of Oxford St) as I left synagogue yesterday. Like GF I would have been easy to identify, kippah and tallit bag, no camera crew just a wife and sister.

That’s grim, sorry to read this.

Jon, Stone

Thank you for your kind words.

And, to clarify things, this was an encounter with a pedestrian rather than a demonstration.

[Tony]

As well as chants of "Palestine will be free" there were also shouts of "shame on you" and "scum".

On what basis was it OK for them to shout "shame on you" and "scum"?

Are you claiming that was purely to do with GF walking against the flow of marchers or something?

My interpretation is that the people shouting "shame on you" and "scum" were doing so because they were blaming anyone wearing a kippah for the horrors in Gaza. is so wrong to do that -don't you agree?

Given the police presence, one might assume that they did not believe this to constitute a hate crime and did indeed come to the conclusion that it would not be beyond reasonable doubt that such remarks were made because that person was deliberately seeking to disrupt an authorised procession, rather than for any protected characteristic.

Do I agree with calling anyone “scum” ? No.

I’d point out it was an extremely large procession and the numbers making insulting comments (as far as we can tell) rather small.

Have you watched the video for the context of those remarks?

What appals me is that fellow marchers didn't step in and remonstrate with those who were shouting such abuse.

You think a procession of that size is a homogenous group of comrades? The majority will be strangers to one another.

A New Testament quote is apt here:
Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

The next time you see a group of lads on the street having some verbal, I hope you will step in (and avoid injury).
On a more minor level, next time you’re at the crag and you see a fellow climber littering with their finger tape or playing music in a nature reserve, I trust you will go over and ask them not to.

[Oldmanmatt]

I think maybe Mike's point is that even Jews who are out protesting against the war in Gaza don't feel safe if they don't join in with things like, say, "from the river to the sea..." (I certainly wouldn't join in with that; I'm not Jewish).

My brother lives in London and some people were celebrating in the streets in the wake of 7th October. He's also shared some graffiti that appeared in his local park: a spray-painted star of David with the word "scum" underneath.
Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".

I’m fucking done with extremists of all stripes.
Protesting or fighting for basic freedoms and simple human rights? Crack on, I’m with you.
Rosa, wasn’t advocating the genocide or oppression of others, only the obvious injustice of segregation. Aka, protesting for basic human rights and freedoms.
Any right minded person can see the Oct 7th was wrong, just as the same person should see the subsequent response in the same light.
I work with a Palestinian who is ardently anti-Hummus (for the Google bots, I think he enjoys crushed Chickpeas). I know plenty of Muslims who are passionately anti-religious extremism, despite being devout.
Aside: I traveled to Amsterdam last Nov with an Egyptian friend, who became vocal and (frankly) embarrassingly confrontational, with some Dutch Muslims at immigration, because of how they were dressed and their obviously strict attitude to Islam. Arguing with them about whether theirs was a true interpretation of the Koran. Then endured a long rant about how “these people” discredit his entire religion and the people of the middle East in the taxi to our hotel.
I’ve heard all kinds of different opinions from Muslims regarding Israel and Palestine. Many that surprised me.
There is obviously a huge difference between various groups of Israelis, with the current situation massively protested there.
I’m becoming an anti-extremist, extremist…
(That’s a weak joke, not an actual position).
Fed up with idiots who think extreme acts will solve anything. They just make things worse and make resolution a pipe dream and the lives of ordinary people miserable.
Ultimately, idiots who provoke confrontation are just handing ammunition to those who would like to see all forms of protest eliminated. I absolutely draw a line between legitimate protest against injustice and advocating for discrimination or violence against A.N.Other group.

Broadly I'd agree with you but I would say that part of the issue is the definition of extremism and how some actors look to use that to influence the narrative. For example, "Free Palestine" is a statement which to the Israeli government and it's supporters is extremist, antisemitic etc. For others it is an eminently sensible and moral thing to state and support. I think that saying, for example, that the UK shouldn't sell arms to a fascistic Israeli gov is perfectly reasonable. Practically and morally how does it benefit us! Suggest that to the Israeli ambassador to the UK and I suspect you'll be labelled something along the lines of extremist. And as Will says, we get "The Woke Mob" chucked around now. To Suella going out on these marches basically makes you an extremist.

This comes along in lots of other areas too, not just this one. So yeah I do broadly agree but also I'm cautious of statements which
appear like basic common sense really but then get muddy when you ask who says what is extremism?

Absolutely, but this kind of forum makes full expression so hard to articulate. I think everyone here is mostly right, for a given value of right. I had meant to extend my opinions on extremism to (particularly) the current government, who, to my mind, peddle hatred and division (for petty personal gain and power grabbing, rather than deeply held ideological beliefs). Pay/reward them enough and they’d flip 180 on any given position.
Stone makes a good point, but I can’t see GF as more than a self promoting, grandstander, who may have done more harm than good to his purported cause. Blinkered at best.
Does anyone imagine the average Met Copper (already stuck in the middle of an argument even the greatest statespeople have failed to solve for, what, three generations) is suddenly going to feel kindly disposed to people like GF? Policing of a city like London and it’s, often opaque, cliques, racial/national communities, gangs etc etc, is already (probably) enough to beat the ideals out of even the most idealistic recruit, in short order. Is diversity trading actually going to give some hardened old sweat an appreciation of what it’s like to be a Jew in London? Damn sure they already have a fleet of advisors and representatives. Should we be advocating for separate policing of individual communities, by members of that community? I reckon I could see a problem or two there…
Here, we’ve bumbled along under an antiquated political system, set up to govern a vastly smaller population, in a time when education was hard to come by and diversity limited, for centuries and it’s creaking (cracking really) under the strain of a huge, incomprehensibly diverse, population. Political influence is no longer constrained by the ability to read and write, nor by access to the media, all of which is now effectively universal.
It’s all probably going to get much worse before (if) it gets better.
Looking at some of the shit my partner has to deal with in her school, I can’t see it getting better soon. I’d love to think education is the answer, but teenagers are not the most stable or receptive audience…

[Tony]

The only thing that protects the whole world from descending into a Gaza type nightmare is the extent to which we stand up for neighbours who aren't like us.

Just to point out: this is a completely specious statement. It actually makes exceptionally little sense in the Israel-Palestine (inc. Gaza) context.

I presume you mean something more like “tolerance”. But that’s not what you wrote.

[mrjonathanr]

.
I presume you mean something more like “tolerance”. But that’s not what you wrote.

From one pedant to another: I think the intended meaning was clear enough. Wittgenstein aficionados may disagree.

[Tony]

.
I presume you mean something more like “tolerance”. But that’s not what you wrote.

From one pedant to another: I think the intended meaning was clear enough. Wittgenstein aficionados may disagree.

Well, “stand up for” does rather imply a more confrontational approach than “tolerance”. They really are quite different.