[stone]

I've never been involved in a street protest but I see them as a fairly crucial aspect of democracy.

My impression is that current UK policing is struggling with their endeavours to balance the right to protest and a desire to maintain harmony and order. They seem to be following a (implicit?) protocol where protests are allowed but counter protests confronting such protests are not.

I can see how such a policing strategy has come about. I'm sort of conflicted in my views about it. Is it enough to allow people to stage their own protest so long as it is away from a protest demonstrating the counter viewpoint? Or is that limitation curtailing the most important right of all -the right to stand up against a mob?

[Wellsy]

As with many things my views on counter protests and protests come down to what the protests are protesting about. I appreciate that from a legal and policy perspective that's basically useless though.

[stone]

As with many things my views on counter protests and protests come down to what the protests are protesting about. I appreciate that from a legal and policy perspective that's basically useless though.

But isn't it crucial to have a system of democracy?

Even, if at a moment in time, we had a government with a viewpoint that perfectly aligned with your own, don't you see that as something precarious that requires democracy in order to keep things OK longer term?

[teestub]

Do you have actual examples you’re thinking of Stone? There seem to have been plenty of protests and counter protests over the past few years.

[mrjonathanr]

A really interesting topic, Stone. Thanks for posting. There is a lot that could be considered here, but if I may, I will just pick up on one point you make.

I've never been involved in a street protest but I see them as a fairly crucial aspect of democracy.

My impression is that current UK policing is struggling with their endeavours to balance the right to protest and a desire to maintain harmony and order.

Do you think the government is endeavouring to balance -ie to respect- the right to protestt?


Climate protestors might think otherwise. For climbing onto a bridge: 3 years’ imprisonment.
/just-stop-oil-marcus-decker-morgan-trowland-jail-dartford-crossing

For holding a placard reiterating an existing right of juries: on trial at the High Court herself for contempt of court:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68846780

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/13/how-will-recent-and-future-legislation-affect-the-right-to-protest-in-the-uk#:~:text=The%20Police%2C%20Crime%2C%20Sentencing%20and,may%20now%20be%20shut%20down.

UN High Commissioner for Human Rights expresses concern over UK legislation:
https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/04/1136107#:~:text=The%20Public%20Order%20Act%20introduces,particular%20people%2C%20or%20even%20to

[mrjonathanr]

Do you have actual examples you’re thinking of Stone? There seem to have been plenty of protests and counter protests over the past few years.

This might be an example. Jewish man threatened with arrest for breach of the peace for being ‘openly Jewish’ near pro Palestine protest march:

https://news.sky.com/story/met-police-chief-mark-rowley-should-resign-says-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-by-officer-13119818

[monkoffunk]

Do you have actual examples you’re thinking of Stone? There seem to have been plenty of protests and counter protests over the past few years.

This might be an example.
https://news.sky.com/story/met-police-chief-mark-rowley-should-resign-says-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-by-officer-13119818

He wasn’t even counter protesting, he was just there. That was terrible and response so poorly thought through that it’s hard to give any ‘heat of the moment’ benefit of doubt.

[teestub]

This might be an example. Jewish man threatened with arrest for breach of the peace for being ‘openly Jewish’ near pro Palestine protest march:

Yeah saw this, absolutely mad, I was wondering if this is what prompted the initial post, but not really a counter protest as such as noted?

Also may be worth distinguishing between organised and sanctioned things like the Palestine protests etc. and the Just Stop Oil style gluing oneself to things? There was an interesting article about XR giving up on civil disobedience style protests

[mrjonathanr]

Also may be worth distinguishing between organised and sanctioned things like the Palestine protests etc. and the Just Stop Oil style gluing oneself to things?

Very definitely, good point.

There was an interesting article about XR giving up on civil disobedience style protests

Might be interesting to share this? Coincidentally, I have been listening to Spiral Tribe and reading a bit about the Free Party movement of the 90s recently. You can see links between current youth and climate protests through illegal rave culture back to the earlier 80s New Age Traveller movements.

Two key pieces of legislation in restricting right of assembly and protest are the Criminal_Justice_and_Public_Order_Act_1994

and recent Public Order Act
see also https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9899/

[stone]

To me, the reporting of the Gideon Falter incident implied that the Police had wronged him in that he wasn't actually counter-protesting, but supposedly, if he had been, it would have been fair enough:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n19j892neo
"Mr Falter said he had been walking in the capital after attending synagogue and was not there to counter-protest."

It was that incident that got me thinking about this, but I'm not especially interested that incident, rather the wider point.

Regarding that incident, my impression is that Gideon Falter is an extremely astute activist and that policeman was at best terribly inept. In a previous interview, I've heard police point out that in these Gaza-ceasfire protests there is a very visible "Jews for Justice for Palestinians" presence  -with those protestors proclaiming their Jewishness and being welcomed by fellow protestors.

My view is that Gideon Falter must be protected to go wherever he chooses wearing a kippah. I'm asking though whether someone should also be allowed to eg proclaim negative views about the Gaza-ceasfire protests at those protests?

I realise just how fraught and contentious the whole Gaza tragedy is. I've agonised about what to make of it myself:
https://jwmason.org/slackwire/urpe-statement-on-gaza/#comment-15188
https://jwmason.org/slackwire/urpe-statement-on-gaza/#comment-15189
https://jwmason.org/slackwire/urpe-statement-on-gaza/#comment-15190
https://jwmason.org/slackwire/urpe-statement-on-gaza/#comment-15191

....but I think the same policing issue applies to eg EDF marches that get counter-protests and perhaps even some environmental-vs-"freedom" counter protests -not to mention future unforeseen examples.

[mrjonathanr]

I think a lot of people will agree with you Stone, that a maximalist position on either side is doomed to endless conflict without resolution. I'll avoid commenting on that specifically, but if you have not seen The Gatekeepers, I'd urge you to do so. I think you'd find it very interesting.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2309788/

[teestub]

Might be interesting to share this? Coincidentally, I have been listening to Spiral Tribe and reading a bit about the Free Party movement of the 90s recently. You can see links between current youth and climate protests through illegal rave culture back to the earlier 80s New Age Traveller movements.

Apologies I did mean to share! There was an article in The Guardian around the same time too.


https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/extinction-rebellion-protest-activism-oil-b2264618.html

[Offwidth]

On Gideon Falter there was was an ex superintendent on the TV this morning defending the Lawrence family concerns. He also mentioned it's worth watching the full news clip on Sky news. Gideon had a camera crew ready and was trying to cross the path of the March itself. The superintendent was clear the Jewish comments were totally unacceptable but Gideon doesn't seem to be quite what he claimed.

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104

[stone]

Gideon Falter is renowned as a very prominent and strident activist.

What interested me was that the perceived legitimacy of his complaint is being judged on whether or not he was conducting a counter-protest or just "crossing the road". Shouldn't he be free to counter-protest?

I'm really not sure at all where the police should draw the line. My (armchair ignorant) thought is that he should have been allowed to cross the road with film crew in tow -perhaps even allowed to heckle the marchers. But if he and a dozen fellow activists had eg tried to link arms across the road to block the march, then that should have been stopped by the police.

NB: I want a Gaza ceasefire and I guess have similar views about the Gaza situation as most of the marchers.

[stone]

Reading your Skynews link, it makes clear that there was a separate group to the side of the march with Israeli flags and Gideon Faltner objected to the Police asking him to go over to them.

So, my impression (perhaps wrong) is that the Police were happy to allow a counter-protest (with Israeli flags) to the side of the march but weren't happy to risk a sort of hands-on argy-bargy counter-protest. The policeman sort of claimed that Gideon Falter was crossing the road in a way that would have pissed people off irrespective of whether he was "visibly Jewish" -but I guess if some awkward and clumsy person waving a Palestinian flag had walked against the flow of people, the police wouldn't have been concerned for public order.

I'm sort of thinking it was all very artful of Gideon Faltner, but also that he does have a legitimate point that it is very wrong for people to harangue Jews, blaming them for what Israel does -much as it is wrong to eg harangue random Arabs for 9,11 etc. Perhaps a bit of political theatre provoking such a (illegitimate) response from a crowd, is justified?

[teestub]

For holding a placard reiterating an existing right of juries: on trial at the High Court herself for contempt of court:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68846780

Good to see this one had been thrown out of court https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/apr/22/judge-throws-out-case-against-uk-climate-activist-trudi-warner-sign-jurors-rights

[petejh]

On Gideon Falter there was was an ex superintendent on the TV this morning defending the Lawrence family concerns. He also mentioned it's worth watching the full news clip on Sky news. Gideon had a camera crew ready and was trying to cross the path of the March itself. The superintendent was clear the Jewish comments were totally unacceptable but Gideon doesn't seem to be quite what he claimed.

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104

Essential viewing to get the full context. I think the police in that footage are being the adults in the room and look calm and polite. Of course he has a right of freedom of expression of faith, and to wear whatever he wants and go where he wants. But compare with a normal weekend afternoon up and down the country when rowdy opposing tribes of football fans are escorted by police in an effort to try to retain the peace, and not allow potentially volatile crowds to antagonise each other to the point of violence... we don't hear much about self-important football fans claiming they're being victimised by not being allowed their freedom to freely walk into an emotionally-charged crowd of people who may not like you very much, risking their own safety and those of the people who would inevitably have to try to sort it out following an inflammation. And then complaining that the police aren't keeping them safe by allowing public order to breakdown because of their lemming-like fondness for a confrontation with reality.

He's acting like a man-baby. Says it all that now the fuller picture has emerged that he claims he's now being victim-blamed. He has 'want-to-be-victim-of-injustice' stamped all over his core based on that footage.

[Oldmanmatt]

On Gideon Falter there was was an ex superintendent on the TV this morning defending the Lawrence family concerns. He also mentioned it's worth watching the full news clip on Sky news. Gideon had a camera crew ready and was trying to cross the path of the March itself. The superintendent was clear the Jewish comments were totally unacceptable but Gideon doesn't seem to be quite what he claimed.

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104

Essential viewing to get the full context. I think the police in that footage are being the adults in the room and look calm and polite. Compare with a normal weekend afternoon up and down the country when rowdy opposing tribes of football fans are escorted by police in an effort to try to retain the peace, and not allow potentially volatile crowds to antagonise each other to the point of violence... we don't hear much about self-important football fans claiming they're being victimised by not being allowed their freedom to freely walk into an emotionally-charged crowd of people who may not like you very much, risking for their own safety. And then complaining that the police aren't keeping them safe by allowing public order to breakdown because of their lemming-like fondness for a confrontation with reality.

He's acting like a man-baby. Says it all that now the fuller picture has emerged that he claims he's now being victim-blamed. He has 'want-to-be-victim-of-injustice' stamped all over his core based on that footage.

That is starting to look like a fair assessment. Especially given the apparent and obvious Jewish presence in the protest (as I understand it). It doesn’t look like it will do either his position or the general “right to protest” much good.  The current government don’t need much excuse to move to curtail any form of protest.

[SamT]

Slightly off topic, but I went on a Criminal Justice Act protest march in Manchester (94?).

It went from the center of town, out along oxford road and ultimately to end in Platt fields park with a stage/speeches etc.

Usual sketch, whistles, horns, noise, banners etc.  Generally good vibes.

However, we seemed to march straight past several (locked) entrances straight off Wilmslow road, and were guided into a very narrow side street, (Mabfield Road) down to the 'side' entrance to the park.  This street was lined with police horses and the atmosphere instantly went from all fun vibes to a really serious tension.  It was quite scary and I was waiting or just one nutter to throw a bottle or something and unleash riotous hell.

If that wasn't a clear case of deliberate 'kettling' I don't know what was.  Just so blatent.  Words were had in ears and the autorities were just dying for someone to kick off so they could charge in, then label the protesters as hooligans etc.  Thankfully, everyone was stoned or loved up  (unlike pissed up football fans) so it passed without incident. Probably to the chargrin of the polititians. 

[andy popp]

I've been attending protests (and to a much lesser extent, engaging in civil disobedience) for the best part of 40 years.

There's a narrative that in Britain policing is by consent, that is there is some kind of social contract between the authorities, the police and the people that allows for a more consensual, collaborative style (this is often more or less explicitly compared to policing in other countries, as well as being advanced as an explanation for why British police are typically not armed). But the police have always been willing to use violence against protesters and others - witness the killing of Blair Peach in 1979, Orgreave, the Battle of the Beanfield, or the Poll Tax riot. At the same time, over the time I've been involved in protests, one government after another has given them more and more power and discretion. The criminalisation of many perfectly peaceful forms of protest is now getting very worrying. Freedom to protest is significantly curtailed at this point.

I must have been to at least 20 Gaza related protests in Copenhagen over the last six months and the contrast in policing styles is striking. Even on marches of c.60-80,000 people I doubt ever seen more than 10 police officers along an entire route, including outside parliament, where marches typically end. The lightness with which protesting is policed here is pretty mind-blowing.

[stone]

That's really interesting Andy. In Copenhagen have there been counter-protests to the Gaza protests and have any of those entailed rowdyness?

[stone]

Of course he has a right of freedom of expression of faith, and to wear whatever he wants and go where he wants. But compare with a normal weekend afternoon up and down the country when rowdy opposing tribes of football fans are escorted by police in an effort to try to retain the peace, and not allow potentially volatile crowds to antagonise each other to the point of violence... we don't hear much about self-important football fans claiming they're being victimised by not being allowed their freedom to freely walk into an emotionally-charged crowd of people who may not like you very much, risking their own safety and those of the people who would inevitably have to try to sort it out following an inflammation. And then complaining that the police aren't keeping them safe by allowing public order to breakdown because of their lemming-like fondness for a confrontation with reality.
He's acting like a man-baby. Says it all that now the fuller picture has emerged that he claims he's now being victim-blamed. He has 'want-to-be-victim-of-injustice' stamped all over his core based on that footage.

My impression is that football supporting is sort of viewed as an exception where tribal hostility is allowed to let rip.

I think it is right and proper that other aspects of life are not allowed to be like football rivalry. No one simply being themselves, expressing their faith or ethnicity or whatever, should feel that in doing that they are somehow part of "the wrong team".

Don't get me wrong, I personally view Gideon Falter as something of an adversary. He worked very hard to portray/reveal "Corbynism" as supposedly being a antisemitic and I'm and ardent supporter of "Corbynism". But I also think it is important to protect everyone and anyone from racism etc.

[andy popp]

In Copenhagen have there been counter-protests to the Gaza protests and have any of those entailed rowdyness?

I haven't seen any counter protests, or any trouble of any kind (not claiming there has been none, only that I haven't seen any).

[tomtom]

On Gideon Falter there was was an ex superintendent on the TV this morning defending the Lawrence family concerns. He also mentioned it's worth watching the full news clip on Sky news. Gideon had a camera crew ready and was trying to cross the path of the March itself. The superintendent was clear the Jewish comments were totally unacceptable but Gideon doesn't seem to be quite what he claimed.

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104

Essential viewing to get the full context. I think the police in that footage are being the adults in the room and look calm and polite. Of course he has a right of freedom of expression of faith, and to wear whatever he wants and go where he wants. But compare with a normal weekend afternoon up and down the country when rowdy opposing tribes of football fans are escorted by police in an effort to try to retain the peace, and not allow potentially volatile crowds to antagonise each other to the point of violence... we don't hear much about self-important football fans claiming they're being victimised by not being allowed their freedom to freely walk into an emotionally-charged crowd of people who may not like you very much, risking their own safety and those of the people who would inevitably have to try to sort it out following an inflammation. And then complaining that the police aren't keeping them safe by allowing public order to breakdown because of their lemming-like fondness for a confrontation with reality.

He's acting like a man-baby. Says it all that now the fuller picture has emerged that he claims he's now being victim-blamed. He has 'want-to-be-victim-of-injustice' stamped all over his core based on that footage.

There was also a piece on C4 news - where they found phone footage of Gideon F trying to cross the march on at least two other occasions and being asked not to by two different police officers. It appears that his behavior was being observed by a plain clothes officer and when G was challenged about this and denied it - said officer piped up to contradict him.

[stone]

Rosa Park's act was also staged political theatre. She is rightly seen as a hero.