[Tony]

I couldn’t understand why the person who took everything out had not removed it completely?

This was not there when I visited most recently.

I can see plenty of people take the ethical view of wanting to keep things pure and adventurous. … it would be good if it was more pragmatic.

The BMC access arrangements are pragmatic.

I was also grateful for the convenience of all the roads carved through nice fields which I drove along to get there, the nice path I walked along and the helpful bridge I used to cross the stream.

The roads are public highways maintained under democratic principles, nominally for the wider public benefit. The paths and bridge are part of the public rights of way network and must be maintained by the landowner. These are also under the oversight of the local highways authority, so under democratic principles nominally for the wider public benefit.

The belays on top are pretty shit and the e1 we did to get to the top was shit and quite dodgy rock.

The belays at the top are perfectly adequate. Afterall this was how the anchors were placed. Once one knows what gear is required and where to place it, it is a quick affair to recreate. That one then has to reascend to the top and remove the equipment at the end of a session is a minor inconvenience (and was commonly considered part of the act of climbing).

There are … even other bolts on the same bit of wall

All the bolts on the buttress had gone when I last visited.

A couple of bolts up the back to clip stick up and not leaving ropes in place probably would have avoided all this fuss…

You can basically clip stick up the route in this case so why add any more kit (round the back)?

[Johnny Brown]

What perspectives do you expect to get?

Well I've not climbed here for a decade and don't know the details. There was a fair amount of support on the UKC thread - the stuff removed was immediately replaced. What is guaranteed not to help matters is getting into a bolt war where stuff is continually removed and replaced. There is a wider issue here too - there is loads of similar at Stoney, for example, which personally I don't like - if I want convenience and fixed gear I go sport climbing.

As suggested above, there is potentially a compromise solution where much more limited fixed gear can still allow access for those with a clipstick. What cannot continue is a knotted rope down a Hard Severe - they won't agree to that on the grounds of visible tat or the potential for little Jimmy to get into big trouble. I can't see much of an issue where climbers go as a competent pair, but Ed seems to be suggesting he would prefer to be able to turn up alone? As much as that might be what happening it seems a bit of bonkers precendent to be setting.

The same landowner who is content to have over a 100 dogs on a dog walking meet on a summers afternoon like we witnessed last May.

I'm sorry but some perspective is required here.

You should do some access work. It is an educational experience to sit in a stakeholders meeting representing climbers and find that the majority view is that, a) climbers are not special (who knew - I mean wtf?) and dogwalkers have an equal seat at the table, and moreover, 2) landowners and conservationists are united in their view that an activity like a one off mass dog walk is considered less damaging (if they stick to main path etc.) than climbers being on the same route 3+ nights week for several hours.

Birders/ wardens tend to keep different hours to climbers, but also creep about, carry binocs etc and see a lot more than you might imagine. It's easy to get into a bit of an ownership mindset, when working a route like this and seeing next to nobody, that you can do what you like and no one sees, let alone cares. But in place like this if they're not watching directly there will be someone noting less nests in the area compared to previous years. The sound of a power drill is highly unlikely to go unnoticed. These things might not be enough to trigger contact, but they do get pulled out in meetings to weaken your negotiating position.

[duncan]

Ed, thanks for coming on here. I’ve used fixed lines on Portland and other spots where they are accepted and there are no access issues relating to fixed gear. This is not Portland, it’s a space we share with others, a very public feature. The landowner wants to present a Picturesque Landscape in a way that doesn't create undue risks to visitors or unduly interfere with flora and fauna. These aims are in tension with climbing and to retain access we have to be pragmatic.

When I read the other thread my first reaction was how is fixed rope considered acceptable when leaving quickdraws overnight is not? I now get that the rope is not immediately obvious but, as well as the visual aspect, kids do like to explore and a rope might be seen by the landowner as encouraging them to get out of their depth and so creating undue risk. The working compromise in this part of the world is discrete bolts do not significantly detract from Picturesque Landscapes but in situ quickdraws, chains, and bits of rope do. It's a bit contradictory in some ways but the landowner is providing roughly what the great majority of visitors expect. If the landowner was less sympathetic it would be very easy for them to ban climbing here and possibly on their other lands in the region. The landowner is influential, a quasi market leader, and if they move in this direction then other landowners will be taking note.

I will never go near the 7c+ or the 8b but they look amazing. It would be good to preserve access to them even if this means a bit more work each time you try them. I've done the E2 but, if I hadn't, I'd be pretty pissed if access was lost.

(I have my own views on bolting and fixing a rope up a route climbed pre WW1 but that’s not for this conversation).

[Hacker]

Worth noting that the location is on access land so climbing access can't be banned easily unless others know differently?

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/visiting/frequently-asked-questions/faqs-access-land#:~:text=What%20can%20I%20do%20on,picnicking%2C%20photography%20and%20bird%20watching.

[Johnny Brown]

There is a big difference between being allowed to climb and being allowed to install bolts. At some point (hopefuly not here but somewhere) I expect the situation to arise, as it has in the US, where an entire area has to be completely cleared of all fixed gear.

[Hacker]

Agree.
Looks like I'm be wrong about the open access anyway. The OS app shows the particular crag as open acess but the Natural England site does not. Neither show any of the southern crags on the easy bank as being on open access land and it wouldn't be worth contemplating loosing those.

[Bonjoy]

Yes, I don't think this crag is on access land. It's in a National Nature Reserve and there was a programme to dedicate NNRs as access land that started in 2015, but there were stated exceptions to this based on terrain and conservation, either of which might plausibly apply in this case. https://magic.defra.gov.uk/magicmap.aspx is the most definitive online record and it doesn't show it as being access land.

[ToxicBilberry]

Whatever happened to going about your business quietly with as little fuss and impact as possible? Alternatively why not rig a circus up at the crag and spray all over the internet about your personal journey. …. Nowt wrong with a bit of spad climbing now and again.

[jwi]

This is extremly confusing without knowing the crag. People are toproping an E7 (or possibly a 7c+?) and cannot simply solo a 5b to get up a toprope? So they must install a via cordata instead? Surely not? Does the 5b ascend kitty litter?

[Will Hunt]

Does the 5b ascend kitty litter peak limestone?

Yes.

[SamT]

Finally clocked where this is.  Surely this whole lump of rock should be left to be the pinacle of adventure trad climbing.  If you want to top rope the E9, then surely you have to earn your ascent, with all the faff and bollox that involves.  Surely not a huge chore to climb the 2 star E1, or E2 to get up there, which if you're talking multiple days, you'd surely have wired to the point of it being trivial.

Whatever happened to going about your business quietly

Hard when the lump of rock in question is the focal point of a hugely popular tourist beauty spot and picnic area.

 

[petejh]

Whatever happened to going about your business quietly with as little fuss and impact as possible?

What happened is you (still) don't hear about those who are.

[ToxicBilberry]

Whatever happened to going about your business quietly with as little fuss and impact as possible?

What happened is you (still) don't hear about those who are.

Yes sorry it was a rhetorical statement, I forgot about the difficulty of translating text to reality on the internet. Although the phenomenon of the 'pseudo dark horse' with a fragile ego is always around.

[spidermonkey09]

adventure trad climbing......hugely popular tourist beauty spot and picnic area.

I suspect this is part of the issue. Its pretty clearly not an adventurous location. Its an extremely busy walking and picnic area as you say, with dogs, prams, selfie sticks etc, at most 15/20 mins from the parking (haven't been in ages so might be wrong). I think some limited fixed gear up the back and a bolt belay to facilitate the route being worked with minimal faff is a decent compromise.

[northern yob]

I think a decent compromise is us following the very simple rules already in place as asked for by the land owner(who has every right to tell us to fuck off)! What is it with us as a group..? And our sense of entitlement and inability to follow simple rules, access is only going to become more of an issue, if we can’t do better, we deserve everything we get…

[spidermonkey09]

I think a decent compromise is us following the very simple rules already in place as asked for by the land owner(who has every right to tell us to fuck off)! What is it with us as a group..? And our sense of entitlement and inability to follow simple rules, access is only going to become more of an issue, if we can’t do better, we deserve everything we get…

To be clear, I agree that leaving a fixed line up the HS isn't on and I can see why it was chopped, and I don't think the owner of the rope has anything to complain about. But I can't see a problem with trying to engage with the landowner to help ensure that this doesn't happen again and future proof the agreement a bit. Its a sporty E7/8 on an iconic bit of rock, its not going to become less popular.

[northern yob]

It will become less popular if it gets banned….. we’ve engaged with the landowner and have an existing agreement which allows us access, I’m not against open channels and pushing for more, but maybe after being busted for ignoring the previous agreement isn’t the best time, and doesn’t put us in the best position to be negotiating….

[Ed booth]

Is there a record for the area then of fixed/insitu gear that has been agreed? And do we know if any of the fixed gear in discussion was ever agreed anyway. There are a couple of very old pegs at the top (top in a sporty sense, end of the clean overhanging rock, where it transitions into a chossy easier angled groove) of EOTT. These are where the bolt was that I saw chopped . The bolt backed up the pegs which are now pretty poor. I think one has no eye and the other was shit.
On a separate but semi-related topic, has EOTT had many on sights? Steve? Jacopo?

[stone]

Its pretty clearly not an adventurous location. Its an extremely busy walking and picnic area as you say, with dogs, prams, selfie sticks etc, at most 15/20 mins from the parking (haven't been in ages so might be wrong). I think some limited fixed gear up the back and a bolt belay to facilitate the route being worked with minimal faff is a decent compromise.

Doesn't the fact that it is a pinnacle with no bolt ladder up it make it a rare adventurous location? The fact that it is possible to get to without a hike/float-plane/rabies-jab/whatever makes it all the more precious doesn't it?

To me, trad climbing charm is dependent on not being a contrived avoidance of easier options. That's reflected in the stars routes get awarded too isn't it? 

Replacing bad abseil pegs with stainless bolts makes perfect sense though. Can't any top-rope rig-up be backed up to such an abseil point?

[Johnny Brown]

Ethics aside, gear precedents don't matter here. The BMC access team have a good idea what is in place and what would be problematic. Contact us! This area has every conservation designation under the sun, which means any work carried out needs prior approval from Natural England. The landowner has to do this for all sorts of work, they therefore cannot allow, or even turn a blind eye to, the use of power drills as climbers see fit. As noted above, this is not to say it won't be allowed - if it is agreed first and the rationale is clear it often will be. But unauthorised drilling will be viewed very dimly indeed.

These requirements exist elsewhere, and climbers have often got away with ignoring them. But that isn't a trend that is going to continue, and this is one location where it absolutely can't. As I said above, look at what has happening in the US. Broadly, climbing activity is generally fine with most conservation landowners. But bolt placement generally isn't, and often they have a legal requirement to manage it. If we can't show that we can behave by the rules, the rules will be both tightened and enforced.

[Bonjoy]

Is there a record for the area then of fixed/insitu gear that has been agreed? And do we know if any of the fixed gear in discussion was ever agreed anyway. There are a couple of very old pegs at the top (top in a sporty sense, end of the clean overhanging rock, where it transitions into a chossy easier angled groove) of EOTT. These are where the bolt was that I saw chopped . The bolt backed up the pegs which are now pretty poor. I think one has no eye and the other was shit.
On a separate but semi-related topic, has EOTT had many on sights? Steve? Jacopo?

To my knowledge (and this agreement pre-dates my time in this role) the only request that has been made to install fixed gear has been an after the fact request (by me)to retain bolts on the line which they had complained about us not seeking permission to bolt. Understandably they refused to allow these to stay. This was also because they were very visible from the main path. Beyond that no developers have chosen to ask either directly or via the BMC before bolting, so no other requests have been put in. Some bolts (not many) have slipped in under the radar over the period of the agreement, which suggests the owner doesn't have a comprehensive log of fixed gear and/or doesn't check it regularly. I think it would show bad faith on the part of climbers to use this as rationale to keep pushing until we receive another complaint though.
If climbers collectively decide that something other than the historical collection of fixed gear is desirable it could be requested as an update to existing access arrangements. Up to a point landowners are in favour of well maintained safety equipment, if it has low visible impact and doesn't pose a risk to the general public.

[Bonjoy]

Cross posted with JB. I'd go along with everything he's said there.
Taking advantage of a precedent of getting away with something in the past is not a great strategy in this instance.

[SamT]

adventure trad climbing......hugely popular tourist beauty spot and picnic area.

I suspect this is part of the issue. Its pretty clearly not an adventurous location. Its an extremely busy walking and picnic area as you say, with dogs, prams, selfie sticks etc, at most 15/20 mins from the parking

As per Stones comment.. isn't that the beauty of it all though.. You can go and have a full on trad adventure, climb E9 etc, if you can, all within 50 ft of the normaltons posing for instagram. 

As Stone says, its very precious and it seems that access is now very precarious because a few folks can't abide by some relatively reasonable requests by the land owner that don't really inconvenience the climbing community at all.