[stone]

For the first time in the over 20years since I've been sport climbing in the Peak, there don't seem to be any obvious long standing and grumbled about closed projects. So this offers a rare opportunity to reflect on closed project etiquette without it all being clouded by acrimony over actual cases.

I also think I'm ideally placed to bring this up since I'm so crap and slow that no one would ever worry that I'd steal a project; I don't do new routing myself and I climb both with prolific new routers and with people who grumble about closed projects (they are irrelevant to my climbing as I've got plenty else left to do). So this can be a pure, in-principle, type reflection.

My view (happy to be educated though), is that a sensible etiquette might be that there should be a time window of no more than a couple of years after which it would be poor form to keep a project closed. Perhaps even more poor form than stealing such a project if the developer didn't agree to open it after a couple of years.

My thinking is that it is wrong to keep a project closed in the hope that it will spur one on to get better at climbing or whatever. We have very limited rock in the UK. I massively appreciate the work and vision that has produced the routes I so enjoy trying in the Peak (thanks!). But, I don't think such gratitude should sway clear thinking on this. If someone has bolted/cleaned etc a line that is beyond them, then, if they are unhappy to have done it for someone else's first ascent, then that is a screw up of their own making IMO.

I think the French convention of the route being named by the equipper would make a good change to perhaps take the edge off such a two year time limit.

[SA Chris]

For the first time in the over 20years since I've been sport climbing in the Peak, there don't seem to be any obvious long standing and grumbled about closed projects. So this offers a rare opportunity to reflect on closed project etiquette without it all being clouded by acrimony over actual cases.

So you are automatically excluding the rest of the country then?

[stone]

Sorry, I guess I didn't think it through properly. I suppose if you join in then people might think it is about a route where you climb etc.

Let's try and put aside specific examples/climbers and instead just think more in the abstract as to what would best serve the climbing community in the future.

[Dingdong]

I thought closed projects were'nt a thing in the UK?

[stone]

I thought closed projects were'nt a thing in the UK?

There are old threads on here with bitter squabbles over whether or not decade-old closed UK projects need to be respected (sport routes).

[User deactivated.]

If I was the first ascensionist of a boulder problem by way of closing it to others then the FA would feel very artificial.

I enjoy the satisfaction of doing a FA because it signifies being (1) lucky enough to find it, (2) bothered enough to prepare it, and (3) good enough to climb it before others do! Ticking all three provides the most satisfaction, so personally i'm not keen on nicking projects off others (unless long forgotten), but because of (3) I wouldn't want to prohibit others from nicking mine.

I tend to stack the deck against myself even further by shouting about how good my recent finds are Best man wins though init.

[edshakey]

If I was the first ascensionist of a boulder problem by way of closing it to others then the FA would feel very artificial.

I enjoy the satisfaction of doing a FA because it signifies being (1) lucky enough to find it, (2) bothered enough to prepare it, and (3) good enough to climb it before others do! Ticking all three provides the most satisfaction, so personally i'm not keen on nicking projects off others (unless long forgotten), but because of (3) I wouldn't want to prohibit others from nicking mine.

I tend to stack the deck against myself even further by shouting about how good my recent finds are Best man wins though init.

Broadly agree with this, although I suppose there is a non trivial difference between boulders and routes, given that bolting costs effort and money. It seems sensible that someone going to the effort of drilling bolts should be given some amount of time to get the route ticked, rather than being fearful of others deliberately swooping in and nicking the FA.

Overall, the principle of effort invested to the benefit of others being proportional to time the project stays closed seems broadly fair. If someone spends ages cleaning, bolting, landscaping etc, they probably deserve a bit more time than someone who doesn't have to do any of that.

In that respect, I think you (Liam) would be within your right to ask people not to jump in and nick a first ascent if you've spent a while cleaning the holds and topout, building a landing, etc, when they will clearly benefit from your work. Although obviously if you aren't bothered, then no problem either!

[stone]

I get the impression UK limestone sport routes typically involve plenty of arts-and-craft work, deciding which loose holds to jettison and which to brush off the woodlice from behind and glue back on. People with experience of this told me that in the wrong hands eg Harderobe could have been rubbish instead of the mega-popular instant classic it is.

I guess there isn't so much overlap between the people up for doing that route preparation and the people who might potentially nip in and flash them as soon as the glue had dried (or before). There are examples of routes being "stolen" on the 8mm cleaning bolts and loose holds before being sorted out by the route-preparer. That leaves things in limbo a bit.

[abarro81]

Personally I think a bolter should be given a "reasonable" amount of time as a closed proj if they want it. What's reasonable is obviously a bit vague, but in this country I think it has to be vague - e.g. a hard two year rule wouldn't make sense for a route at the cornice if it was a bad 2 years and it didn't dry out!

One key thing is if they're actively trying the route too. If someone was 5 years deep on a big proj where they'd spent days cleaning, putting in nice glue-ins, gluing loose holds etc. and that was their all-consuming passion then I'd be less likely to whine about it being closed. If they bashed one 10 mm bolt in and didn't go back for 2 years then it should be open - no baggsying things for the future by popping one or two bolts in. 

[stone]

I suppose the archetypal examples have been where people have put quite a lot of work in, have tried it loads for a season or two and then have tried it less and less (or at all) with each passing year for many many years.

The problem with not having any sort of convention is that, in the absence of a convention, whoever calls it as being a lost cause is going to vilified (just look at old threads on here).

Are there great eg Cornice routes that wouldn't have been developed as nicely if there had been such a convention?

[abarro81]

Luckily in the UK I think it's fairly rare - there are a couple of obvious examples of long-standing closed projects around, but really only one or two I can think of. Generally projects have been given away after a few years or even sooner. Personally beyond 3-5 years I think things should be open, though again it depends a bit on circumstances...

[36chambers]

so personally i'm not keen on nicking projects off others

you could have fooled me

Overall, the principle of effort invested to the benefit of others being proportional to time the project stays closed seems broadly fair. If someone spends ages cleaning, bolting, landscaping etc, they probably deserve a bit more time than someone who doesn't have to do any of that.

In that respect, I think you (Liam) would be within your right to ask people not to jump in and nick a first ascent if you've spent a while cleaning the holds and topout, building a landing, etc, when they will clearly benefit from your work. Although obviously if you aren't bothered, then no problem either!

+1

I've stumbled across a few boulders that have definitely been cleaned at some point, although I can't find any mention of them anywhere. One of them I found over a year ago and looks untouched since, so I think I might get stuck in now. The other two I only found recently, but they look like they haven't been touched in a couple of years, so I'm undecided whether I should have a bash or wait a bit. Obviously, these might have all been climbed already and I'm just being overly considerate for nothing.

[User deactivated.]

so personally i'm not keen on nicking projects off others

you could have fooled me

Fucker 

I did say things that hadn't been abandoned for years! And Jon F built the landing anyway 

But if you want a new project, I've cleaned up around 10 probable 8s in Yorkshire that I haven't gotten around to trying and I'm more than happy to share!

[36chambers]

so personally i'm not keen on nicking projects off others

you could have fooled me

Fucker 

I did say things that hadn't been abandoned for years months! And Jon F built the landing anyway 

Alas, you weren't aware of either of those things at the time. Anyway, this is precisely what stone was trying to avoid

I'll DM you about those potential eights as it might solve the mystery of

I've stumbled across a few boulders that have definitely been cleaned at some point, although I can't find any mention of them anywhere. One of them I found over a year ago and looks untouched since, so I think I might get stuck in now. The other two I only found recently, but they look like they haven't been touched in a couple of years, so I'm undecided whether I should have a bash or wait a bit. Obviously, these might have all been climbed already and I'm just being overly considerate for nothing.

[User deactivated.]

Of course I was aware it hadn't been tried in years, I spent half a day clearing the top after I found it independently!

But yep, happy to help if I can.

[Bonjoy]

Is this Triangulation?
I wasn't the first to spot the line. There were signs of it having been cleaned on a rope by others before me. I then trimmed some branches and did half a job digging a flat landing. Was happy to see Liam climb it. I probably wouldn't have got back to try in any time soon.
Likewise with the other one you might be meaning. It's already a noted project online, the landing work wasn't epic and it's too far away and too hard for me to do quickly. I.e. ticks all the boxes for being an open project. Though I didn't go out of my way to advertise it's existence/status for obvious reasons.

As I've said on previous threads, my view is that it's (as the thread title says) a matter of etiquette, there is no rule saying a person who preps a boulder has soul rights to try it. However, the more vision, effort, time and expense has gone into something the more grace should* I think be afforded the developer to have a go. Any longer than a year** seems like a bit of a pisstake to me though, especially if the line is obvious. A few dry days though isn't too much to ask though if it's been an epic effort, or a courtesy message to ask if it's okay.

*That's 'should' in the sense of being decent and considerate. It's like farting in a checkout queue - you aren't breaking any rules or laws but it's a pretty obnoxious thing to do and will rightly earn you some stern looks.
** Caveats may apply where something is devilishly hard to find in condition.

PS - Ben, if you read this, I should have been more gracious about that sitter proj on Sunday. Normally I'd like to think I'd be less proprietary about something like that. Was just frustrated and sick of being weak due to injured fingers.

[petejh]

I think the etiquette is different for boulders versus routes. Different again within routes, for sport versus trad. It would be a bit of a nonsense to try to suggest a cover-all etiquette for all of bouldering/sport routes/trad routes (I don't think anyone's trying to do that here, unless you are Stone?).

One of the biggest influences should be 'how many other routes/problems (or potential new routes/problems) exist at location x?'. And how many people are climbing at location x?

This massively influences the impact a closed project has on what a venue has to offer*.

Example A: closed bolted route project on a cliff with 100 other routes (and 100 other potential new routes remaining), where not many people climb.
Example B: closed bolted route project on a cliff with 10 other routes (and no other potential new routes left), where a lot of people climb.
Example C: closed boulder in example A.
Example D: closed boulder in example B.

I suppose a general rule of 1- 2 years makes it simple to understand. But doesn't take any account of circumstances. I think longer than this is definitely reasonable in example A, but probably not in example B.


*A classic case of this was the closed extension to Grand Canyon in Devil's Gorge - a popular venue, with only around 10 other decent routes to go at, and hardly any other new routes to do except Aly's link-ups and extensions (which are great btw).
** Trad: for some reason doesn't seem right to expect any closed projects because trad is supposed be pure and unmuddied by work to prepare it. Even if most of us know this is bullshit.

[Bonjoy]

It's common to hear (especially on podcasts) the very best boulderers arguing that everything should be an open project. This strikes me as really not the egalitarian ideal it tends to get justified as. Obviously ~8C climbers would like all lines to be  open projects, so they can swan around hoovering up everything in their wake, without ever having to waste training days going out looking and prepping new lines themselves. Why would they not think this is a fantastic idea?
In the long run there is an opportunity cost to spending lots of days looking and prepping, and a benefit to the climbing community. Arguing against the developer having some short grace period to try the project is pretty mercenary I think. It also leads to developers sitting for years on undocumented new venues, rather than sharing early.

I agree Pete re trad projects.

[petejh]

Yep totally. In some ways it operates as market of supply and demand. Where the route developers are suppliers and other climbers not involved in route development are the demand.

The incentives for suppliers are that they get to enjoy the reward (mostly in internal satisfaction) of getting an FA and seeing it enjoyed by others. Take away this reward too often and the motivation for developers to develop - as in actually do the donkey work usually required to make a good sport route, not just the climbing which we all know any wad can do easily - goes away. If enough developers think it isn't worth developing stuff that's hard (for them), then the wads would have to do the donkey work every time they wanted something hard to climb. Which most wads are, to put it undiplomatically, shit at and too lazy to do - or more diplomatically because of the opportunity cost of not climbing other cool stuff.

[SA Chris]

Why would they not think this is a fantastic idea?

Especially if they get a brucey bonus from their sponsors for a big number FA.

[User deactivated.]

It's still rewarding to develop a project and not get the FA! I've been psyched to let others get FA's on things I've spent time and money developing. It's good to feel that my time and effort produced something that benefitted the local climbing community (more so than the actual FA in my mind).

[petejh]

Definitely agree. I get loads of satisfaction from this aspect. I'm involved in new routing not putting up new problems, so the details of development differ a bit, but yeah the the feeling of satisfaction of having created something of value that others enjoy is a big part of the attraction for me. I might be into double digits for the number of new routes I've bolted but suggested someone else (often Bobbins in the past) should do as it would either take me too long or I just wasn't that bothered.

However.. context matters. For me there are details which go into a mental melting pot to come up with an outlook on whether or not it seems reasonable to claim something 'closed' and for how long - such as: how hard something is relative to ability, how good it is, how much effort, time, money you've spent creating something, how popular the venue is, what else at the crag is there to climb or develop, who else is around.

[mark20]

I know someone who put a lot of effort into cleaning and bolting a thin and sustained limestone slab ( etc). Long by local standards, ~15+m, with stainless glue ins. Must have been a couple of days hard work to prep, and many more trying it. I think there may have been a finger injury and the clock ticked towards the 2 year grace period before someone else swept in who "felt it was about time someone actually climbed the thing".
Funny thing is, I doubt the guy would have ever even gone to that crag if my friend, and some others, hadn't re-bolted all the routes there.
He was pretty gutted and never went back to the crag as far as I know.

[stone]

I'm getting the sense that people generally are saying for bolted routes a 2year grace period is a bit tight. Perhaps it would be more suitable to say that a developer ought to start thinking about opening a project after 2years and perhaps "society" ought not to vilify "route-stealers"  after 5years?

I agree with Pete's point about the nuisance value of closed projects being greatly influenced by the number of other potential routes and existing routes already at a crag or nearby crags. I think though codes of etiquette only really work if they are relatively consistent so people remember them.

Pete's example of a closed project was a situation that I guess arose because the existing etiquette is that the bolter has a perpetual right to keep a sport project closed. That bumped up against the reality of the best route being left undone for a generation at a venue that was the local crag for lots of people and had few routes. Perhaps a 5year rule would have avoided that? Perhaps an ethos that it's best not to bolt stuff you don't envisage doing (or handing on) in a couple of years might have dissuaded the developer of that project from bolting it in the first place and that might have been best all round?

[thunderbeest]

I'd say the time you spend preparing it X2 should be proper.

There's this guy around who's been up some lines in the mountain, had to aid some sections and claims it as a closed project because he want to free it. But hasn't done any effort in the last 2-3 years to return to the place (50 minutes drive). I don't think you can claim trad multipitch even if you brush some.