[rjtrials]

The keyword in the thread title is "etiquette."

As a developer and someone who enjoys resurrecting abandoned projects, the key is communication.

If someone wants to climb on my routes, I generally have a rule that they should climb on it with me.  It helps both of us get the thing done.  There have been multiple times when I've spent several seasons on something and haven't done it.  During the process, the route was de facto closed.  Afterward, it is softly 'open.'  If some crusher wants to climb the route "because no one owns the rock" then the project is definitely closed.  If you call and talk to me and enquire about it I will give you all the beta and blessings.

I take the same approach to abandoned routes at crags I frequent.  Talk to the developer, see what was done on it, and see what work needs to be done.  Ask if you can do work on the route if it is needed.

There is a certain amount of respect to be conveyed on both sides of the developing/climbing coin.  I understand that there are people on both sides who are not amiable and are a PITA to deal with.  I still will shoot them a text and let them know i plan to fix up/climb on their routes if it is ok.  Sometimes it isnt, and thats ok too.

[stone]

rjtrials, I think you have perfectly summed up what I also understood current UK sport route development etiquette to be. First off -massive thanks to you and all route developers -we wouldn't have sport routes without you!

I suppose the point I was trying to make was that there have been cases where I really don't think current etiquette has served the climbing community well at all. I was hoping that, if it was widely agreed that it wasn't fit-for-purpose, then a different etiquette might instead be adopted (as I described). My impression is that you consider the current etiquette is how things ought to be -that's a valid (and perhaps majority) opinion.

I suppose in my own mind, I view people who "steal" overly protracted closed projects more favourably than I do people who don't open them freely after they are several years old. But no one ought to mind what I think.

[kc]

A consequence of some wad rocking up and dispatching a project quickly, abandoned or not is they often have very little interests in what happens afterwards. There are numerous examples of routes left in a poor and filthy state with loose or missing holds, rusty cleaning bolts and even missing hangers/bolts. If I were to give a project away it would ideally go to someone willing to take ownership and pride in what they are going to leave when done.
I struggle to think of many worthy candidates to share my secret projects with.

[rjtrials]

I suppose in my own mind, I view people who "steal" overly protracted closed projects more favourably than I do people who don't open them freely after they are several years old. But no one ought to mind what I think.

As mentioned above, the "stealer" often doesn't leave the route in an optimal state for repeaters.

As a direct response, how do you know if a project is defacto open or closed without directly talking to the person responsible for developing the climb ?
Are you relying on hearsay?

As an example, I was partly responsible for resurrecting a crag that had lain dormant since 2015.  Most of the routes had anchors that needed attention, and the name plaques had all faded etc etc.
I reached out to one of the developers, he sent a pic of his hand drawn topo. I started a Google doc and invited the other two main developers to add the info they had.  We put chains on some classics, I added / moves bolts etc etc .
It became a hopping zone this fall and not only were the people new to the zone psyched , the OG's were excited we were fulfilling the vision and making the crag better than they had left it.

Of course there were a couple undone routes and I was encouraged to finish them.

A wad was visiting one day, not falling on anything, and enquired if the projects were open or closed.

I told him I had talked to the bolters and had specific permission to do what needed to be done (I added anchors bolts, belay bolt, chains etc) and if he wanted to climb on the other projects he should do the same.  Crestfallen he waited until I sent and then casually flashed the second ascent.

But seriously, how hard is it to just text someone and ask about a line?  How lazy are you that you will whine about a 'closed' project yet won't pick up the phone let alone the drill, hammer , brushes etc.

Seriously you can GTFO with that attitude.  I've had this conversation in person many times and I just tell the wads to bolt their own projects, tell them a half dozen options, then mention how being a repeater of routes add nothing to the community.

[User deactivated.]

Seriously you can GTFO with that attitude.  I've had this conversation in person many times and I just tell the wads to bolt their own projects, tell them a half dozen options, then mention how being a repeater of routes add nothing to the community.

Bloody hell.

Wads are welcome on the projects that I've opened and have been trying. I'd be psyched to see them done!

[dunnyg]

Have you bolted many lines Liam?

[User deactivated.]

Have you bolted many lines Liam?

No, but if you're using that as a measure of time, work and expense put into developing rock then it's a poor one, so I fail to see the relevance.

[Dingdong]

I’m pretty sure Liam has spent more time developing that massive roof (see weeks) in hawkcliffe than most developers would do bolting 5 20m sport routes and yet he has been more than happy to give it away for others to do.

[stone]

But seriously, how hard is it to just text someone and ask about a line?  How lazy are you that you will whine about a 'closed' project yet won't pick up the phone let alone the drill, hammer , brushes etc.
Seriously you can GTFO with that attitude.  I've had this conversation in person many times and I just tell the wads to bolt their own projects, tell them a half dozen options, then mention how being a repeater of routes add nothing to the community.

There is zero chance of me being a route stealer myself. I'm about as far from being a wad as is conceivable, and am comically slow at working through the plethora of suitable existing routes close to where I live. As such, I thought I was just the person to bring up the subject on behalf of the wider community because many people aren't in that circumstance.

In the UK, there have been a few cases where prime routes have been kept closed for decades by developers who weren't able to climb them. People who asked if they could be opened were told no. The developers hoped to improve their climbing ability and so in the future be able to climb them. That's the behaviour I was questioning.

[thunderbeest]

I also suppose it might be easier to figure out who's put bolts in the wall than to figure who brushes the boulder, as there's been so many crowds in the last 30 year. Or even to be sure that it was brushed at all. A lot of older groups had the attitude to not tell about ascents either..

[duncan]

What would Jibé or Patrick do? (from 4'01")



I miss the skullduggery of climbing in the 80s!  Mind you, I might think differently had I been on the receiving end. I had trad. routes I'd inspected/cleaned and envisioned with no fixed gear being climbed by others after adding pegs or bolts to take the sting out of them but that's a separate discussion.

[User deactivated.]

It's slightly different though, developing a bloc from which you do some, but not all, the first ascents (I assume - apologies to Liam if not) and developing a sport route that someone else does. I also think you are underestimating the time (and expense) it would take to develop 5 20m sport routes in many places in the UK. Personally I've cleaned up a few blocks (3 days in a boiler suit scrubbing the lower half of Sheep Buttress springs to mind) that I never considered having any closed projects on, but I would be narked if I equipped, glued, and cleaned a sport route in the Peak that someone nicked.

I do think context is very relevant though. Whacking a few bolts in a last great problem type route on perfect rock then bagsying it for several years is very different to cleaning and fixing up some slightly chossy, overgrown and ignored limestone route. Also bear in mind the degree of care some people take to make the routes good. KC in particular has converted some previously grim bits of rock into gems.

Then there's the practical aspect - many (most?) sport routes in the UK would probably not have been equipped if there was a real risk that the equipper wouldn't get to do the FA.

On the boulder I'm most proud of opening, I managed to get 1 FA, but it wasn't the first line on the block and I advertised it to everyone before anything had been climbed. I just thought it would be more fun climbing on it with other strong climbers?

I don't think it's fair to say that either sport or bouldering development requires more or less work and expense. It obviously depends. Imagine a completely hypothetical scenario where to avoid doing anything illegal, local climbers seek and acquire the permission of a landowner to develop the best bouldering area possible. You could not only brush a few blocks, but break and shift hundreds of tonnes of rock that is blocking boulders with potential, craft perfect landings on steep hillsides, clear as much vegetation as needed, glue and stabilise holds, etc. of course, I would not recommend doing this without permission.

[Kingy]

To take Smith Rock as an example, from the recent interview with Alan Watts on the Written in Stone podcast, Alan mentions that it took him 7 days of work to bolt and prepare To Bolt or Not to Be before ot was ready to be climbed. Jibe Tribout asked Alan permission to try it and this was given then Jibe sent it in 1986.

Alan was working on another 5.14 called Bad Man which was a mess and required a similar amount of cleaning of friable holds, gluing and bolting, hard manual labour. He had a specific conversation with Jibe about this and asked him to stay off it as he had fallen off the last move and wanted to get the FA as it meant a lot to him (his fingers were injured and he could only climb a few days per week). Jibe flew in and snagged the FA without consulting Alan which local climbers informed him about, saying it was a low act.

There is another climb in Aggro Gully called 'Scene of the Crime' which received a similar treatment by Jibe. Apparently his justification was that it would have been OK in France. Alan mentions that he was OK with Jibe doing Just Do It, which he had bolted in 89 and gave permission for Jibe to try.

The podcast is well worth a listen! 

[petejh]

I don't think it's fair to say that either sport or bouldering development requires more or less work and expense.

Nah, this doesn't hold water. Developing is hard and time consuming work. Developing sport routes is always going to be, on average, more work than boulders. Yes there are plenty of routes where the crag is easy access and you can walk to the top drop a rope, and the rock's immaculate, and vertical or less than, and the bolts go in quickly because you can access the rock not be swinging 6 feet away from the rock, and the moves are obvious. But this is maybe 1% of the time. And yeah there are boulders miles from anywhere which are massive and have to have huge cleaning efforts and elaborate patios, but again in a minority.

To illustrate why routes are harder to develop than boulders you only need to look at why boulders traverses are easier to work the moves on than sport routes. The difference in effort and logistics of working out moves, which dictates where bolts need to go, should be obvious.
And something you can pop a ladder against or drop a 5m bit of rope down is in a completely different league of workload/time to a 20m long and overhanging new route - which just to access the face to touch the holds, let alone get purchase to create opposing force to be able to drill bolts into rock - requires you to aid bolt/aid on gear your way up or down the cliff. Then you have to work the moves on a rope and realise you've misplaced the bolts for clipping onsight. Total ballache but strangely addictive.

Showing a lack of experience of developing routes there sorry Liam.

[Tony S]

Just to add, obviously, the dust from the drilling and the fumes from the glue are real killers too 

[petejh]

W.a.C. 

[kc]

Exactly what Pete said. For context a short spot route with 8 bolts and a lower off might cost about £70 and that is with bolt fund discount so £100+ is not unusual. That's if you're using quality bolts of course.

[User deactivated.]

Sorry Pete, but your lack of experience in moving hundreds of tonnes of rock is showing.

But I'll modify my position. Developing sport climbs usually takes more effort than developing boulders, but there are instances where this isn't true. My reasoning for posting in this thread was to argue that there isn't an agreed rule on the matter of closed projects. Some people put in a lot of work and close projects, others put in a lot of work and leave them open for everyone (this is my preference as a developer).

I saw 5 years mentioned somewhere in the thread. Surely that is a joke?

Edit - I misread. They thought 5 years was too long (thank god).

[spidermonkey09]

Of course there are instances, but as the saying goes, the exception proves the rule.

[abarro81]

Good effort on all that work Liam, sounds like a mission!

[stone]

One take home to me is that we really ought to big-up route/boulder developers a lot more. As Ru said, kc and a couple of others have crafted many gems and unearthed whole crags, not to mention the amazing rebolting/stabilisation work on pre-existing routes. I'm not sure whether many people climbing at the Tor now realise that pretty much all of the glue-ins  were placed by kc. His glueing job on the jug at the start of Mecca was a nationally significant infrastructure project.

The thing is that many route developers don't seek "payment" for their efforts by way of permanently closing forlorn projects (eg I don't think eg kc ever has). Without even having the French convention of the developer naming a route, there is no other give-back from the community to developers. So, as a community, we indulge a very small minority of developers with decades-old closed projects by way of "payment" to developers at large, most of whom don't close projects for unreasonably long periods anyway.

[GazM]

moving hundreds of tonnes of rock

Literally? 

Yeah, I'm intrigued by this too. I've always assumed that if that much landscaping is needed then it's a bit hard to justify - that I'd be better offspending time and energy elsewhere - but perhaps I need to change my approach to unearth more new problems!
What did you do Liam? Any before and after photos? And how were you breaking rocks?!

[stone]

I saw 5 years mentioned somewhere in the thread. Surely that is a joke?
Edit - I misread. They thought 5 years was too long (thank god).

No I don't think everyone was saying 5 years was too long.

My impression was that I had lost this argument as in my plea for some (any) time limit seemed to have been counter to the still-prevailing view. I'd take a 5 year time limit as a sea-change in convention that would solve the issue that this thread was intended to address.

[teestub]

Yeah, I'm intrigued by this too. I've always assumed that if that much landscaping is needed then it's a bit hard to justify - that I'd be better offspending time and energy elsewhere - but perhaps I need to change my approach to unearth more new problems!
What did you do Liam? Any before and after photos? And how were you breaking rocks?!

Not sure how shifting masses of rock and changing would tie in with the open access situation in Scotland? I assume that people making mountain bike trails for example do so with landowner permission, but I have no idea.

I think there’s a big difference in between trundling a block or two or a bit of light patioing and major earthworks! 

[GazM]

Yeah, I'm intrigued by this too. I've always assumed that if that much landscaping is needed then it's a bit hard to justify - that I'd be better offspending time and energy elsewhere - but perhaps I need to change my approach to unearth more new problems!
What did you do Liam? Any before and after photos? And how were you breaking rocks?!

Not sure how shifting masses of rock and changing would tie in with the open access situation in Scotland? I assume that people making mountain bike trails for example do so with landowner permission, but I have no idea.

I think there’s a big difference in between trundling a block or two or a bit of light patioing and major earthworks!

Yeah, agree that up here landowner permission would probably be required (although realistically in many cases I'd bet they'd never know if you didn't ask).

Perhaps this needs a dedicated thread. Incredible feats of landscaping. Or perhaps we don't want to lift the lid on the dirty dark arts of development...