[Fiend]

Firstly make sure you've got the right motivation and right desires fuelling the path to bravery:

Good reasons to become braver:

1. Because there's some bloody amazing boulder problems that could be attainable with a bit more bravery.
2. Because it will make you a more rounded climber and maybe feed back into your GOALZ.
3. Because higher boulder problems can be a great experiences.
4. Because working towards coping with higher stuff can be a fascinating exploration of the challenge.

Bad reasons to become braver:

1. Because you're ashamed of not being brave enough.
2. Because you think you "should".
3. Peer pressure.
4. Grades.
5. Because a born-again soul climber who is an 8A+ beast and an E6 highballer who has transcended mere grades encourages you to do so.
6. Because some cantankerous old ledge shuffler who can do 80m E3s on silt but can't actually climb anything hard encourages you to do so.
7. Anything to do with cross-training for over-chalked, over-eroded, chipped, eliminate, rule-driven send-train bellend "ticks".



Then stack some odds in your favour...

1. Work up SLOWLY and GENTLY. Push yourself bit by bit. Comfort zones need to be stretched gently otherwise they're get injured and harden up.

2. But keep trying with it. Aim to push a little bit each time. Try to habitualise doing "a little brave" stuff, even if it's not very brave, or feeling very progressive at the time, it will get you used to the whole situation of factoring bravery in.

3. If you push too far and it's too scary, ease off. Go back a step and take it gently.

4. Choose higher problems that have sensible, manageable landings, without any extra exposure, weird drops, distracting rocks, etc etc. You can work those factors in in time.

5. Stack the pads well, get used to really optimising the set-up, covering all bases, make the height feel more comfy.

6. DO make sure you're out with people who empathise, understand, and respect your limits (even if their limits are different) and encourage you - you guessed it - gently. Be wary of people who are aiming for peer-pressure pad parties on moderately big boulders, who might not understand your limits (unless you thing that might work and is worth a try). There's nothing wrong with being less brave, there is something wrong with being gung-ho with someone's lack of bravery. Equally, be wary of people who are too timid, too inhibited, and will hold you back with a lack of encouragement and positivity.

7. Don't do too much of the brave stuff overall until you feel more accustomed to it. Mix it in with your comfort zone of normal bouldering or lowball grot or whatever.

8. Choose things that are genuinely inspiring regardless of grade or status and that are going to be genuinely pleasurable experiences along with a frisson of challenge summoning the required bravery. Avoid doing brave stuff for the sake of it or when your heart's not in it (unless you feel determined and ready to "train" bravery that session).


A few gentle semi-local problem ideas to ease into these sort of things:

Mono Slab Left Arete 5+, Stanton In
Probably 4+, Bradley
Three And Four Pence, 6C, Bradley
Witch's Sabbath 6B+, Stanton
Razor Arete? 6A?, Robin Hood's Stride
That slabby thing left of Jerry's Arete, RHS
Brain Dead L/R 6B/C, Cratcliffe
Technical Master 6C, Millstone
Pebble Arete L/R 5+, Stanage
Love Handles 6A, Stanage
WADS 6A, Baslow
The Balls Test 6B, Baslow
The Eagle Stone stuff, Baslow (not fucking Hot Ziggerty)
All Quiet On The Eastern Front 6A+, Burbage
Safe Bet E1 6b, Burbage (only once ready, and the wall right of it)
That arete behind Trackside HVS 5b, Curbar
Curbar Corner 5, Curbar (and the L arete?)
The Big Slab 4, Higgar,

I thought of loads of these in the car today and have forgotten most of them sorry, will add more when I think of them.

[User deactivated.]

5. Because a born-again soul climber who is an 8A+ beast and an E6 highballer who has transcended mere grades encourages you to do so.

Twat   

Do you not think there's any merit in choosing something high ish with a flat landing where falling off is likely, and hopefully you edge a bit higher each attempt? Kinda like the DWS approach where you need to take a plunge before realising it's not that bad and can then climb more freely.

[sxrxg]

Dry wit in a wet country at 7a seems to be a perfect candidate. Perfect flat landing l, tricky move at a height I found a bit fluttery into an easier topout.

[stone]

I'm thinking back to a few weeks ago when I was too scared to do the (I guess font 1 or something) mantle/step-up last move on the Nose at Burbage West. I had my elbows on the top of the problem. Nick (I think the Nick who posts on here) clambered up to the top to offer kind moral support. I still chickened out and stepped off to the right 

[Fiend]

5. Because a born-again soul climber who is an 8A+ beast and an E6 highballer who has transcended mere grades encourages you to do so.

Twat   

Do you not think there's any merit in choosing something high ish with a flat landing where falling off is likely, and hopefully you edge a bit higher each attempt? Kinda like the DWS approach where you need to take a plunge before realising it's not that bad and can then climb more freely.

Maybe, but that also depends in one's confidence in landing consistently well - which might not be there. I was looking at the "likely to get scared, unlikely to fall" scenario more which is hopefully the case for the grand example in question. But I did forget to address the physical side and getting used to landing from increasing heights (subject to knees coping etc) so that is something useful to consider.

Dry Wit has a weird-ish landing with the ground dropping a bit underneath, plus might be a bit spookier without a handjam to finish, plus I think it's a bit too close to Wellsy's outdoor max unless the Kilterboard / Lattice edge test gainz are in full effect - I was thinking more of gentler stuff hopefully within the physical comfort zone.

[Mostly_Inanimate_Beans]

Might be due to only having one pad but Conan the Librarian felt a smidge on the spicy side and has a nice flat landing.

[stone]

I'm always in awe when I see people who do cat-like dismounts. Try as I might, my dismount style always emulates these guys

[Aussiegav]

I like the principle of the topic. There’s a great list 

But personally I think putting Wellsy’s name in the topic title & making reference to Liam in this manner is poor taste.

[Wellsy]

Ah I personally don't mind my name being in there. It is very helpful tbh. I am going to try and start getting on these problems this year and build up from there, all in the name of crosstraining for over-chalked, over-eroded, chipped, eliminate, rule-driven send-train bellend "ticks" of course

[scragrock]

Ah I personally don't mind my name being in there. It is very helpful tbh. I am going to try and start getting on these problems this year and build up from there, all in the name of crosstraining for over-chalked, over-eroded, chipped, eliminate, rule-driven send-train bellend "ticks" of course

Or....pop north to clean/climb and send an obscure and unreaptable horrorshow of a highball line in the arse end of nowhere
Motivations and Advice - Cause its there, fragile ego would'nt cope if somone else did it first.
Persuade/lie yourself into believing that all will be well and the pads are fine.
Send it on your own so Noone has to deal with your bent and broken body when it all goes wrong.

Best of luck old chap

[Hoseyb]

It's ok to feel afraid, it's not ok to feel out of control.

Control your environment, your landing, your choices, even your company.

It's not ok to accept a poor landing at this stage, a small step towards improving it ( or changing choices) increases your sense of control.

Bouldering highball in the arse end of nowhere, Mr Rock, is a particularly quixotic endeavour and is for those, like ourselves, slightly tapped.

[Duncan campbell]

One way to go about this is to use a mixture of “process” and “outcome” goals.

They kind of explain themselves as to what they are but you could go about it by finding a LTG problem that you would love to do but know that with your current mindset/head you couldn’t do.

Say for example this is West Side Story.

This is your outcome goal. You can then set a variety of process goals to arm you with the skills to try this.

You need to be able to climb a fingery but technical crux up to have your feet about head height and then keep it together for an easier but droppable top.

So you might make yourself a process goal of improving your ability to climb slightly tricky highball problems and you could set a few outcome goals as markers of progress (doing a number of 6A-6B highballs)

The other process goal would be to improve your technique on vert stuff, and again you could set some smaller outcome goals to use as markers for that also.

Obvs that was all just for example… it could be super valuable for your climbing to think about what it is that inspires you, what you would love to do for you. Intrinsic motivation is much more powerful than extrinsic motivation (though some extrinsic motivation can also be useful).

Doing what really inspires you and not others is the most powerful tool for having fulfilling climbing experience which is often what leads to improvement.

There are a thousand other ways to optimise your mindset and headgame.
I’d say that improving this can be the biggest key to unlocking fulfilling performances whilst climbing. Often these don’t necessarily result in a send but the experience was so good it didn’t really matter.
It’s a hard aspect to improve at but the best thing is, that unlike hanging a 20mm edge, it has incredible crossover to the rest of your life.

Sorry if all that isn’t helpful or relevant to you, but just thought I’d throw my 2ps worth in to the mix.

I think a lot of Fiend’s original post was bang on also. Building up steadily is the name of the game.

Good luck! And I hope you get some of those amazing flow state climbing experiences and you get to work towards a LTG of yours. 

[stone]

I'm curious, do many people fall from the the top move of WestSideStory (or equivalent) and walk away fine?

I did see someone fall from there but it was a bone braker. As such, to me it seemed more like micro-route soloing.

I realise people can be fine with that though.

[Bradders]

I'm curious, do many people fall from the the top move of WestSideStory (or equivalent) and walk away fine?

I did see someone fall from there but it was a bone braker. As such, to me it seemed more like micro-route soloing.

I realise people can be fine with that though.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4-gj-Qjof9/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[spidermonkey09]

Falling from that height would be completely normal for most highball bouldering. I fell off there practicing the top section. With circa 4 pads it's not a problem, the landing is flat.

[Duncan campbell]

I also fell from there the first time I got through the start, was totally fine. Fortunately did it next go!

Have also fallen from higher I think and been fine, worst injury was a heamatoma on my elbow when I fell from the top of the great flake at caley. But mostly I have just had mild whiplash from highball sessions.

 I personally would say that west side would be a mid height highball though haven’t done any big highballs for a long time.

With decent pad setup and a good knowledge of landing you can take some big lobs. I personally prefer a higher problem with a flat landing to a lower problem with a weird landing.

[Paul B]

Reminder that I met my tib+fib with the one time party trick of my right foot being able to touch my right knee, falling awkwardly at a fully padded indoor bouldering wall.

Subsequently, I think it's pretty natural to be cautious when up high!

[stone]

I guess the guy I saw break his heel was just unlucky. He fell from higher than Bradders though.

I think for myself, if I were to get involved in WSS, I'd merely aspire to do a drop-off partial non-proper-problem to the break. But I'm me  (that entails both extreme clumsiness and lack of moral fibre and can't be arsed with bravery in this context).

[Duncan campbell]

Reminder that I met my tib+fib with the one time party trick of my right foot being able to touch my right knee, falling awkwardly at a fully padded indoor bouldering wall.

Subsequently, I think it's pretty natural to be cautious when up high!

Obviously t&cs apply!! All bouldering is risky as you are going to be hitting the ground - highballing more so as with more force. That’s why it’s more fun as it’s more scary.

[Fiend]

I like the principle of the topic. There’s a great list 

But personally I think putting Wellsy’s name in the topic title & making reference to Liam in this manner is poor taste.

As well as Wellsy being candid about his altitude limit in the latest Lattice round-peg-square-hole number crunching thread, we had also been chatting cheerfully on FB about this issue and I think I'd been pretty encouraging there. The ideas in this thread came specifically from that chat for his benefit, but I thought it might be a useful more general topic too. My banter with Liam in the other thread seemed to go down okay and I continued it gently here (again from Liam's reply it seems okay) - and made sure to tarnish my own name too!! The point being that you could have two climbers who quite like a bit of highballing, have got there from opposite ends of the climbing experience and grade spectrum, and you should ignore them both if they're being too encouraging about it.

Falling from that height would be completely normal for most highball bouldering. I fell off there practicing the top section. With circa 4 pads it's not a problem, the landing is flat.

There you go Wellsy, as nice as SM09 is, FFS don't go highballing with someone who practises jumping off the top of E4 7as until you're much more comfortable 


P.S. Stone I hope those Walruses are okay  I am exactly the same landing-wise (and, it feels, body morphology-wise, as the walruses).

[spidermonkey09]

I obviously wasn't suggesting it as a tactic, I'm just pointing out that people's perceptions of what height is dangerous are often not correct. It's objectively not that dangerous falling off the top half of West Side Story. People do it every weekend. People also break their ankles falling off awkwardly from much lower. As Duncan said, give me a flat landing and a high problem over a low problem with a shit landing all day long.

[Wellsy]

I tore my MCL almost in half two years ago falling off Bullworker of all things, so I'm definitely well aware of potential consequences!

When I was in font a couple of times last year after a few days I was comfortable on easy stuff (oranges, odd blue) at like 5m. It was just days of moving on rock and a bit of experience that got me there. The trouble is time on rock usually is limited for me, largely cos 1) I'm still learning to drive, and 2) cos weather. Largely 1 though.

I feel like my plan this year is good. Pass test in a couple of months. Get car. Start going out on rock regularly and look to push my comfort zones a little, join like minded people in it and so on.

Then that will hopefully couple with my training strength and existing experience to get me up cool new stuff. I think that in my head it's like, there's a future where doing amazing climbs like West Side Story is possible for me and my plan is the right thing to push me towards that, physically and mentally

[andy moles]

I personally prefer a higher problem with a flat landing to a lower problem with a weird landing.

Mos def. Though it's also about the nature of the moves - how un/predictable they make the landing feel.

[Will Hunt]

I don't want to put Wellsy off because highballing is great fun. However, I write this from Airedale hospital where I'm lying with a broken vertebrae having fallen from the move to the finishing jug of a new/unrecorded highball at Attermire. I fell about 5 or 6m and landed on my feet on my new Organic pad. I'm sure I've taken bigger falls and I'm not sure I could have landed better, though I definitely fell off rather than jumped.

Basically, falling off from height is a learned skill and can go wrong even if you get everything right. I wouldn't say Crescent Arete is one to fall off near the top because of the stepped landing.

So Wellsy, build up slowly, get confident at moving on rock, and don't overcommit when you're cold and haven't warmed up!

[JamieG]

That sucks Will! Hope you recover quickly!

[Wellsy]

Yeah hope you recover quickly Will

[Bradders]

Shit, sorry to hear Will.

[edshakey]

That sucks, wish you a speedy recovery!

Are you able to explain any more what happened? Seems innocuous enough, can't quite picture how this ends in hospital 

[webbo]

Fucking hell that’s really unlucky Will. Having had numerous falls from various heights over many years and broken bones but nothing as serious as yours. I wish you a speedy recovery.

[andy popp]

Bloody hell Will! That's not good. Wishing you a swift and full recovery.

[Aussiegav]

That sucks, wish you a speedy recovery!

Are you able to explain any more what happened? Seems innocuous enough, can't quite picture how this ends in hospital 

I suspect it’s a crompressed vertebrae.

Speedy recovery Will. Hope you’re not in too much discomfort

[grimer]

WRT Crescent Arete, it is quite scary. I have seem people fall off it a little obliviously and just missing that sticky-out ledge at the bottom and felt the need to look away in horror.

Then I read this post by a US pro-style climber about his wife 'shattering her ankle' on that ledge

https://www.instagram.com/p/CzghOFwtGjz/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Scary

[SA Chris]

Or your spotter decides that you are high enough that the single slender Megagrip pad you are sharing won't make any difference if you fall anyway so drags it off in the direction of NTBTA. Nice one hongkongstuey.

[Fiend]

Goes back to this a bit....

I was looking at the "likely to get scared, unlikely to fall" scenario more which is hopefully the case for the grand example in question.

Which might well be the best approach for some of this nonsense (especially if it got a (undergraded) trad grade in the red Stanage guide).

Best wishes and speedy recovery @ Will

LOL @ SAChris and hongkongstuey.

[Wellsy]

Dunno how much I fancy Crescent Arete now tbh lads 

[SA Chris]

Couple of pads and a canny spotter or two and you are likely to be fine. It's a magnificent piece of rock that just begs to be climbed, and it goes exactly how you think it would.

[duncan]

However, I write this from Airedale hospital where I'm lying with a broken vertebrae having fallen from the move to the finishing jug of a new/unrecorded highball at Attermire.

  Fractured vertebrae are extremely variable in severity/seriousness, I hope yours is at the milder end of the scale and you make a full recovery. No neurological damage I hope?

Best case: I have a fractured vertebra that was spotted on an X-Ray for something else but had obviously happened years before. I had been completely unaware of it and didn't know when it had happened though it's likely it was from the big fall when I fractured my wrist and a rib or two; everything hurt a bit but my back was not worse than anything else. 40 years on i've had no further consequences other than that part of my back being a bit stiff. Obviously there are much worse versions.

[User deactivated.]

Damn, as others have said I hope it's not a bad one. I fractured a vertebrae when I was younger (bikes) and luckily it didn't take long to bounce back from.

Remember leg day if you're highballing! A 2x bodyweight squat can absorb a lot of impact!   

[SA Chris]

Like Duncan, I had a CAT scan on my back injury after a skiing accident and they picked up a compressed vertebrae in a completely different location to the ski trauma. They said so I do anything that might cause it, I said I did climbing / bouldering, surgeon rolled eyes and said that's probably it. I guess Vail hospital sees a few. 

[Bonjoy]

One very effective tactic that hasn't been mentioned is using a rope.
Sure, it will earn you disapproving looks from some quarters, but it will certainly help you get up whatever it is you abseil down, which in turn will help you ground up other things.

[Tom de Gay]

A somewhat sketchy tactic is to just hang from the top and even downclimb a move or two. Gets you used to the exposure whilst feeling in control. Not sure what the name for this style is, it's not really ground-up, but neither is it pre-practised. Dangle-point?

[Bonjoy]

That tactic worked for me on The Pride.
Another is to traverse in to practice the high bit from easy ground if that's an option. This worked for me me on WSS.

[spidermonkey09]

A somewhat sketchy tactic is to just hang from the top and even downclimb a move or two. Gets you used to the exposure whilst feeling in control. Not sure what the name for this style is, it's not really ground-up, but neither is it pre-practised. Dangle-point?

Byron Connelly downclimbed Right Unconquerable prior to Brown doing it I believe. Bet that was an engaging first move or two off that rounded top.

[seankenny]

Dunno how much I fancy Crescent Arete now tbh lads 

 

I’ve done it and I’m totally not a bold climber, think it might even have been pre-pad days, so it won’t be beyond you with the right approach.

Will - sorry to hear about your accident, hope you make a quick recovery.

[stone]

I know I said I was impressed by cat-like dismounts. I guess I was thinking of how I've seen Adam Long land on the couple of occasions I've seen him bouldering. But I was also impressed by Ross Cowie  (who I think also highballs a lot)  doing stunt-man style dismounts when doing loads of rapid laps on Rattle-and-Hump at the Tor. I don't know whether he was training for accidentally not landing on his feet, or saving his knees, or whether that is what he intentionally does if he falls off a highball. He sort of tumbled into the landing and ended up lying down each lap. He is legendary for having decked out when clipping high up on Boot Boys and then jumping back on and redpointing it straight away. So evidently what he does works.
There are You-Tube videos about stunt man falling methods

And best wishes for your recovery Will

[lagerstarfish]

I'd be happy to carry/add three pads to the UKB sea of foam for Wellsy if he decides that is what he would like.
Since smashing my ankle into lots of pieces,  I occasionally struggle with fear when bouldering more than a couple of moves up. I do still really enjoy being high up on easy ground or good holds or just when I am climbing well.
Being comfortable with the distance off the deck can feel really nice. If you don't have a lot of experience of that sensation, seek it out. It will probably be doing really easy stuff at first, but that nice feeling becomes reward and motivation once you find it.
Grades, lines, numbers, excitement, ego and all that are good in their own way, but the calm sub-thrill of being comfortable high up has less of a comedown and fewer side effects.

Edit - once you find something high that you like doing, do it lots of times and take time to reflect on the various physical and mental sensations. This might not necessarily make you climb harder, but it will help you enjoy your time more

[stone]

I'm a bit confused, my impression was that Wellsy's aspiration was to climb on classic 7B/+s with the same lack of inhibition as on a kilter board. I took that to mean stuff like Old King Cascade, Famous Grouse, Ram Air, Monochrome etc.

I'm not even sure whether this advice people are giving to wander around in the no fall zone has any view towards the original aim. It sounds as though it is straying into saying doing that is a nicer way to spend one's days than on try-hard bouldering. That is fair enough but it might as well be saying the same for soloing the N face of the Eiger, or going fell running, or golf, or gastronomy or whatever.

[lagerstarfish]

I'm a bit confused, my impression was that Wellsy's aspiration was to climb on classic 7B/+s with the same lack of inhibition as on a kilter board. I took that to mean stuff like Old King Cascade, Famous Grouse, Ram Air, Monochrome etc.

I'm not even sure whether this advice people are giving to wander around in the no fall zone has any view towards the original aim. It sounds as though it is straying into saying doing that is a nicer way to spend one's days than on try-hard bouldering. That is fair enough but it might as well be saying the same for soloing the N face of the Eiger, or going fell running, or golf, or gastronomy or whatever.

Is it not about getting up Crescent Arete as mentioned in the title?

[stone]

Is it not about getting up Crescent Arete as mentioned in the title?

I think Cresent Arete was Fiend's idea. Wellsy was saying:

I'm definitely open to getting out of my comfort zone and plan to do so this year but honestly I feel like at the moment something like that would be really stressful and make me just want to walk away more, not less!
Doing Crescent Arete isn't something I particularly desire but doing less high/sketch things but potentially more high than I am now with an eye towards performing better would be what I want. I could happily go my entire life never getting on, say, Pebble Arete but I'd build towards it if it meant getting to do things I do actually want to do, like T-Crack and so on.

[Fiend]

Actually CA was from the other thread, and chatting with Wellsy on FB. This thread is supposed to be a general one, hence posting it here rather than via messenger, but CA is maybe a good example of extrapolating bravery (into the "won't fall, but best don't fall" category, other forms of highballing are available).

[Will Hunt]

Thanks for all the posts, DMs, and texts. I didn't want to say anything till I had all the results back. I've a burst fracture of my L1 vertebrae but nothing else seems damaged. Some bits of bone went outwards, some bits went inwards towards the nerves. Very fortunately there isn't any neurological damage. The fracture is stable under gravity so I can stand up and move around and have now been discharged from hospital.

So it looks like limestone season is a bust this year, but considering I've shared wards with people who have not sat up or been out of bed in two years, and have no use of their body beyond their hands, I'm pretty sanguine about it all.

[Nibile]

Glad about the good news.
Good luck for a speedy recovery!

[SA Chris]

So it looks like limestone season is a bust this year, but considering I've shared wards with people who have not sat up or been out of bed in two years, and have no use of their body beyond their hands, I'm pretty sanguine about it all.

Good result, I think. Not being macabre, but remind me what you did last time you hurt yourself?

[Will Hunt]

That one was a broken leg.

[highrepute]

Glad to hear you're ok will.

Can anyone recall a video about a female projecting crescent arete? She takes a few trips to do it, there's narration or talking to camera. She possibly also does something at caley, but that might be another video. My partner remembers me showing them it about a year ago. Thanks in advance.

My advice to wellsy is go with a big crew with lots of pads and no pressure. Build up to it with a few other problems to build confidence. And set off with the aim of just getting as high as you feel like.

Also, if you don't fancy it then that's alright.