[yetix]

Sorry Jim, the latter post is solely on the camping point really. I just queried the lamping as well above as it does seem a bit heavy handed when you consider locations such as those I've highlighted above.

[spidermonkey09]

Sorry that wasn't directed at you specifically! More just the general feeling that climbers tend to try and squeeze every last bit of flex out of a rule instead of taking it as its supposed to be, ie the principle rather than the specific detail.

Van camping in climbing in general is only going to become more of a flashpoint in popular areas going forward. I feel really conflicted about the whole thing.

[rodma]

Camping in a shit tent at a cheap campsite is cheaper than owning/ running a van.

The bivvy site at the roundabout nw of cuvier closing down 20 our so years ago would have had the biggest impact imho(tep) to true dirtbagging

Perhaps I'm missing something yet again and there were actually folk in tents with no transport at isatis.

[sdm]

My experience of talking to locals is that the ethic that most locals abide by is very much not "no climbing in the dark with lamps" but rather "no posting/ publicising evidence of climbing in the dark with lamps".

I'm sure there are some who don't go out for lamp sessions, but most of them are lamping regularly throughout the year (winter as it's the only time they can get out midweek, and summer to get better conditions), they just won't put anything out on their public social media accounts when they do it.

[galpinos]

Bare in mind the minimum wage in Poland is approx £800 a month compared to the new minimum wage for the same hours in the uk going to be approx £1800 a month soon and you can see how the perspective might differ a little in other locations. Let's not even start on Albania or Bulgaria where the minimum wage is much lower. The impacts to people from these places is obviously going to be much more felt in terms of additional costs being added to a trip.

I'm not disputing that there were issues in the forest, just simple stating that the poorest are once again the ones who will feel this most, and it's the people in positions of relative privilege shouting loudest about this generally.

For sure people should dispose of their waste better, and be more responsible but dismissing those less fortunate who may not get to experience the few places like font as much or at all anymore seems pretty harsh to me.

Edit added relative

There are three free camping spots around the forest. The provision is there but is limited due to the increase in number of vans and their bad behavior.

I don't think people are dismissing those "less fortunate" than themselves, they are just aware that the van lifing has got so popular that it has put an unacceptable burden on the surrounding countryside. Maybe if people had adhered to the rules and tread lightly, access would remain. And whilst I am sympathetic to those on a shoe string, a lot of the behavior which we so deplore is from those in vehicles that would require salaries well above the breadline......

[jwi]

no poor and rational person stays in a van. I've done the math more than once. It's always cheaper to stay in budget hotels the first 100 days per year.

[petejh]

By that logic you may as well say no poor rational person takes up climbing. It’s always cheaper not to have enjoyable pastimes.

[ali k]

By that logic you may as well say no poor rational person takes up climbing. It’s always cheaper not to have enjoyable pastimes.

That’s assuming #vanlife is the pastime (or included in it). Guessing jwi meant just somewhere to sleep as a means to allow you to climb. If you take that in isolation he’s right that you’re paying a premium to be sleeping in a van up to X number of days per year.

[petejh]

Yeah I assumed he meant that and was being a bit facetious. But the principle of defining rationality on purely monetary terms is nearly always flawed. You can apply it to buying a house versus renting, a holiday home versus using hotels, personal vehicle versus renting etc. and conclude that no rational person buys abc because its cheaper to do xyz.

[andy moles]

no poor and rational person stays in a van. I've done the math more than once. It's always cheaper to stay in budget hotels the first 100 days per year.

This is a questionable comparison.

Firstly, 100 nights in a hotel - how much are you calculating van expenses to be?!

Secondly, where's the nearest budget hotel with availability when you decide you want to go to a craggy place on a whim?

(not disagreeing with the general point that contemporary #vanlife has f*** all to do with living cheaply)

[thunderbeest]

Depends, I know a few people who live 365 days a year in a van. They could of course still keep the van parked at "home" and go rent a budget hotel, but I can see that that's a bit far fetched. Also I don't think that if you use a van one year, let's say for a gap year, that it depreciated as much as the cost of renting cars and houses. I'd even say that second hand vans hold their value rather well.

[andy moles]

Yeah to clarify when I say contemporary #vanlife is not about living cheaply, I mean a particular kind of van-dwelling existence.

I also know people who live in their vans full-time, for whom financial considerations are at least part of the reason for doing so. It's a pretty rational solution to the property and rental markets.

[jwi]

of course, if you stay more than 100 days / year in a van over long time it might be rational.

But whenever I did the sums a van always added up to crazy expensive. Rent of a bigger parking space, more than twice the driving cost compared to a compact car, more expensive insurance, way more expensive to repair and upkeep and much more likely to need repairs, expensive financing (expensive new, steep depreciation). Some of the costs could be controlled by converting a car myself, but compared to moonlighting by teaching classes in a different school diy did not seem worth it either.

For the yearly cost of renting a garage alone you can stay about 30-36 nights in a cheap hotel on the spanish country-side or about 20 nights on the French countryside (and owning a garage has exactly the same capital cost as renting one, at least in the two european cities where I did the calculations). The extra cost of driving a van compared to driving slow in a cheap compact easily adds up to another 10-20 nights.

[Paul B]

You're not renting anything to park it for free (if it's taxed, insured and has a valid MOT) on the street in the UK.

I think your comparison fails when you look at what people style as micro campers and consider that they probably use it all year round as their one and only vehicle.

I've bought and sold two vans. A T4 in 2008 and a Ford E150 in 2013 (so before #vanlife took hold) itself bought and sold in Colorado. I lost nothing on the first and a minimal amount on the second.

[SA Chris]

Yeah i think the example given is not a general one, for the UK at least.

[ali k]

Jwi’s numbers are based on his circumstances so make sense to him, not the UK certainly.

But clearly there’s a sliding scale, from someone with a fiat doblo and a mattress they’ve scrounged chucked in the back sleeping in it full time, to a massive winnebago parked on a driveway 51 weeks of the year.

But most people seem to be somewhere in the middle buying a van as their second vehicle for £10-20k, spending more £££ or DIY time to convert it. So it needs to be used a fair bit over consecutive years to break even over using hotels/rental cottages, which just isn’t the case for a lot of people. Even most climbers if they’re being honest probably.

[Obviously there’s more than just financial reasons for having a van]

[Paul B]

But most people seem to be somewhere in the middle buying a van as their second vehicle for £10-20k, spending more £££ or DIY time to convert it. So it needs to be used a fair bit over consecutive years to break even over using hotels/rental cottages, which just isn’t the case for a lot of people. Even most climbers if they’re being honest probably.

That only holds up if they depreciate wildly, which they don't.

[sxrxg]

I agree with this that depreciation is the key. For me owning a van is more of a cashflow thing rather than the cost. First van i bought for £5000 and sold after 3 years for £4500 (yes it was vintage!). It had some servicing and insurance costs as well however it did us 3 family holidays around Scotland for 10+ days each year and various other weekends based upon this i actually believe it has been decent value. We have now upgraded to a newer van that costs considerably more, this was designed and built to our specificfication by a family friend at very good rates (setting up a conversion business and wanted to build up their portfolio) and could probably be sold for more than it cost us to build (a very fortunate situation that we were lucky enough to be able to take advantage of), again this is purely a cash flow thing for us and with current intrest rates i have no issue having the van on the drive instead of cash in the bank. If you do not have the cashflow then i fully agree that the £10/20/30k (delete as appropraite) is a lot of accomodation fees, I woudl say though that you lose out on the ability to be flexible with weather/dates and for us and our situation with a busy family life this is invaluable to us actually getting into the outdoors regularly.

[ali k]

Paul - could your view be biased by having had two very positive experiences selling on vans (one in the US after a road trip)?

On the flip side I know several people who’ve bought vans and either had no end of trouble with them before they died, or spent a lot of time and money converting before selling on at considerable loss.

[spidermonkey09]

Paul - could your view be biased by having had two very positive experiences selling on vans (one in the US after a road trip)?

On the flip side I know several people who’ve bought vans and either had no end of trouble with them before they died, or spent a lot of time and money converting before selling on at considerable loss.

And presumably doing some work on them yourself because you're handy/mechanically minded?

I've had one small van which I enjoyed having but it cost me a fortune mechanically. Obviously no way of knowing if another car would have been better but it would have struggled to be worse! It probabaly paid for itself because i had a 3 month trip to Spain in it. theres no way it would have been worth it if I'd only done UK trips I don't think. But it was fun having it.

[jwi]

Jwi’s numbers are based on his circumstances so make sense to him, not the UK certainly.

Right now it is a moot point as there is no way to get a camper in and out of Barcelona on weekdays between 7am and 8pm without risking hefty fines for driving a poluting car. (It seems like a lof our neighbours with their big SUVs just pay the fines) But generally in bigger cities in much of continental europe you have to pay for parking, it is not provided for by the taxpayers.

If vans did not depreciate in value you would be able to rent them or lease them for free as surely the rental company would be able to sell them on without losses after a few years. However the opposite seems to be true. I looked into van rental just to make sure that my calculations were reasonable, and lo-and-behold! the rental companies seem to have quite a lot of costs owning vans compared to other expensive cars.

[petejh]

Urban and rural populations have very different costs of living and constraints on property ownership. I live in the countryside with offroad parking. I don't need to, and have zero desire to, live in a town or city. If I did live in an urban area my outlook on vehicle expenses would be more in line with jwi's.

Also 2 different types of van being discussed here - the cheaper, tatty, 10+yrs old van and the pricier, plusher, ~5yrs old or less van.
Former: relatively pricey to run and maintain, higher depreciation, possibly a false economy (being outside the sweetspot of a throwaway cheap banger)
The latter: cheaper to run and maintain, better depreciation (at the moment).

I have a 2017 medium van with a decent conversion, bought in 2020 for £13750, I could sell it now for not much less. Not outrageous cost to run, it has decent mpg compared to older vans, I use it as my only vehicle. Still pricier than only having a cheap small car, but owning it allows me the flexibility to go wherever I want, whenever I want, and not need to book accom. Which (to me) is worth a lot in non-monetary terms (plus a bit in monetary terms).

The error for me is 'rationality = numbers on a spreadsheet'. The numbers on the spreadsheet still have to be sensible within reason, but within reason doesn't equal 'the most efficient method purely on cost'. To me rationality = happiness, flexibility, owning things I like owning, affordable. But the numbers are totally different for me in rural Wales than for jwi in a city.

[abarro81]

Yeah, having a van is surely mostly about flexibility of accommodation rather than anything else. In my experience booking cheap places to stay at short-notice in popular climbing areas can be quite tricky at the wrong time of year... and if you book a cheap long stay you're locked in if the weather turns. Financially it surely depends a chunk on where you are going as well as where you live - in some areas I get the impression it's now hard to get away without staying in a campsite.

[SA Chris]

Yep, we had too many terrible nights' sleep in crap expensive bnbs on weekends away as they were the only thing available near the remote spots where we wanted to climb / surf / ski  / winter climb / mtb before getting a van. We bought it new and paid for a conversion and it's been pretty reliable and inexpensive to run for the last 17 years, although we have just had an inevitable jump in repair bills. And thenew LEZ is going to make getting to the beach to surf an annoyance (going from 20 minutes drive to about 30) but not enough to bin it.     

[andy moles]

I've had four small/medium vans, which I've bought for <£4k and spent ~£1k converting myself (nothing fancy - insulation and carpeting, bed and storage, LED lights and gas stove, comfy enough). All already fairly old for that cost obviously, and it's hard to know whether it would have been cheaper in the long run to buy a newer van (probably, but I couldn't afford it). Has always been my only vehicle and I've spent on average probably 60-80 nights in it per year, between work and personal trips. Just one example obviously, but in my circumstances vanning is definitely the cheap and adaptable way to go climbing somewhere (short of going totally shoestring and hitching with a tent).