[stone]

I suspect this will get me hated but...... I'm always puzzled by how all these various infringements (stashing pads, music, lamping etc) are viewed so harshly whilst dogs at climbing venues seem to be beyond reproach.

There is very good evidence of the impact of dogs on many types of wildlife (even when on lead). In Taiwan dogs are excluded from 20% of the Island so as to protect wildlife.

No everyone loves having their lunch slobbered over etc either.

[spidermonkey09]

I suspect this will get me hated but...... I'm always puzzled by how all these various infringements (stashing pads, music, lamping etc) are viewed so harshly whilst dogs at climbing venues seem to be beyond reproach.

There is very good evidence of the impact of dogs on many types of wildlife (even when on lead). In Taiwan dogs are excluded from 20% of the Island so as to protect wildlife.

No everyone loves having their lunch slobbered over etc either.

I think that's very far from the truth. There are loads of crags dogs aren't allowed (moorland crags etc) and there are numerous threads detailing and moaning about shit dog behaviour at crags and rightly so.

Not sure what you're advocating for wrt dogs and nature, banning them from national parks? Unless you're just bored and fishing, in which case congratulations on the bite! 

[stone]

Sorry I was unaware of the previous threads grumping about dogs.

I guess I just want to express my relative personal tolerance of lamping, pad stashing, music etc and intolerance of dogs at crags and nature reserves etc.

I realise that is a minority view.

Dogs that just quietly sit next to their owners are fine at crags though (so long as not in nature reserves).

[Paul B]

If vans did not depreciate in value you would be able to rent them or lease them for free as surely the rental company would be able to sell them on without losses after a few years. However the opposite seems to be true. I looked into van rental just to make sure that my calculations were reasonable, and lo-and-behold! the rental companies seem to have quite a lot of costs owning vans compared to other expensive cars.

I think we're perhaps talking at odds here; try buying a T4-6 side conversion with a pop top in the UK. They command and retain strong money.

Paul - could your view be biased by having had two very positive experiences selling on vans (one in the US after a road trip)?

And presumably doing some work on them yourself because you're handy/mechanically minded?

I did very little work to the T4, in fact I sourced it and left within a week I believe. The owner used it to go to Le Mans every year (and they were leaving the UK to work in Thailand so were selling everything they owned) and apart from having done a terrible job of insulating it (as he had a 240v hookup) it needed very little. What I did was remove what I could of the conversion and insulate where possible. I did have mechanical issues on the trip which related to an undersized battery and two failed CV joints, but it'd done something like 140k miles. You'd have those kinds of issues on any vehicle of that age/mileage IMO.

For the Ford, I converted it in the parking area of an Ikea/hardware store, and it was 'rudimentary' at best. I'd like to think the reason I didn't lose out here is because (as with everything) I planned very carefully. I was massively burnt out at the end of that trip BTW and it's taken several years to look back on a lot of the experiences (which included an awful lot of failure) positively.

I forgot a third one which perhaps does fall into the category of losing out. I bought a Caddy after the T4 as Nat got sick of commuting (Sheff > Leeds) with a kitchen rattling in the background. I converted it and lived in it for 3 months with what looked like a very OEM finish but didn't love the van itself (too small for my liking for UK weather where relying on 'outside' as being an extension of your living space is optimistic) and it had the issue with the DMF so I decided to sell.

I have a 2017 medium van with a decent conversion, bought in 2020 for £13750, I could sell it now for not much less. Not outrageous cost to run, it has decent mpg compared to older vans, I use it as my only vehicle. Still pricier than only having a cheap small car, but owning it allows me the flexibility to go wherever I want, whenever I want, and not need to book accom. Which (to me) is worth a lot in non-monetary terms (plus a bit in monetary terms).

The error for me is 'rationality = numbers on a spreadsheet'. The numbers on the spreadsheet still have to be sensible within reason, but within reason doesn't equal 'the most efficient method purely on cost'. To me rationality = happiness, flexibility, owning things I like owning, affordable. But the numbers are totally different for me in rural Wales than for jwi in a city.

This.

[duncan]

no poor and rational person stays in a van. I've done the math more than once. It's always cheaper to stay in budget hotels the first 100 days per year.

This is a questionable comparison.

Firstly, 100 nights in a hotel - how much are you calculating van expenses to be?!

Secondly, where's the nearest budget hotel with availability when you decide you want to go to a craggy place on a whim?

(not disagreeing with the general point that contemporary #vanlife has f*** all to do with living cheaply)

More a reply to the thread in general than you specifically Andy but, in my experience, a lot of van owners do attempt to rationalise their purchase in purely financial terms. The post -pandemic boom in van prices has only encouraged this, like boomers congratulating themselves on their financial acumen rather than acknowledging how lucky they got with property price inflation since the 1970s.

I am aware, and I’m sure jwi is too, that vanomics evaluations should include a benefit side of the equation and, for most, are not just an exercise in cost minimisation. For some, waking up in the middle of The Forest / next to Wast water / in the Siurana car park (?) counts as a benefit. Personally, I’d pay extra to sleep in a real bed and have a proper kitchen so I’m delighted that the numbers support my choice!

[petejh]

...
 a lot of van owners do attempt to rationalise their purchase in purely financial terms. The post -pandemic boom in van prices has only encouraged this, like boomers congratulating themselves on their financial acumen rather than acknowledging how lucky they got with property price inflation since the 1970s.

No doubt - people are wise in hindsight. But you can only play with the hand you're dealt and the numbers are what they are. You'd be as incorrect to make a case that desirable campervans currently suffer high depreciation (they don't), as you'd be to make a case that house prices haven't inflated versus earnings (they have). The reasons for, and predictability of, the numbers is a different matter!

[Yossarian]

I was interested in this tread because of whatever it was about originally which I can’t really work out. But it sounds like whatever it is isn’t going to stop me and the kids having a look at La Nuit in 3 weeks time?

Re the van thing. I have a friend who tried to argue the financial argument after spending £55,000 on a VW California.

The idea of a van is very attractive for climbing in the UK though. I’ve largely given up doing camping weekends away from the SE because it’s so much faff, but every time we look at Airbnbs, etc for a couple of nights in N Wales, Yorkshire, etc it’s always insanely expensive.

For anything longer than a couple of days it rapidly becomes far cheaper to go to Font.

[SA Chris]

More a reply to the thread in general than you specifically Andy but, in my experience, a lot of van owners do attempt to rationalise their purchase in purely financial terms. The post -pandemic boom in van prices has only encouraged this, like boomers congratulating themselves on their financial acumen rather than acknowledging how lucky they got with property price inflation since the 1970s.

Confirmation bias runs strong here too.

[James Malloch]

I’ve had 2 vans. One was about a grand and I spent a few hundred on a shitty bed and battery. We used it loads and it was well worth it. Never had any major problems with it.

Current van is way way more expensive. We used it for a 9 month trip so it was worth getting something we wanted and would be happy with. Now it isn’t getting used much, but we have had a lot of experiences which we wouldn’t have had without the van.

Even little things like a day at the beach last weekend. Being able to be comfy, have everything you need and having it all ready to go makes us do more than we would without it.

It wouldn’t be worth it financially right now, but it’s a great thing to have in our current financial situation. I wouldn’t sell it anytime soon and I would rather have that money in a depreciating asset that I can enjoy rather than paying a bit less on my mortgage each month.

[andy moles]

More a reply to the thread in general than you specifically Andy but, in my experience, a lot of van owners do attempt to rationalise their purchase in purely financial terms.

I wouldn't rationalise it in purely financial terms myself - it's something which allows me to have a certain lifestyle affordably. It facilitates a pretty good balance between my wants and my budget.

For several months one year I had a car instead of a van. I never calculated how much the accommodation costs offset the fuel savings, but it was a pain in the arse.

[Duncan campbell]

I 100% have a van for the convenience of going climbing where the weather is best at more or less the drop of a hat. I actually am coming round to the thought that people travelling around in vans is pretty sub-optimal, especially/because of the numbers involved.

However, it makes weekend warrioring really simple, you find a partner with similar climbing interests, you look at the weather forecast on Monday, Tuesday. Wednesday and approx. 6 times on Thursday, choose where you are going Thursday night. On Friday at lunchtime you check again and it’s all gone to shit so you decide at 3pm Friday to go in the opposite direction.
So careless! So free!

*This is meant to be funny but is not a joke.

[spidermonkey09]

I 100% have a van for the convenience of going climbing where the weather is best at more or less the drop of a hat. I actually am coming round to the thought that people travelling around in vans is pretty sub-optimal, especially/because of the numbers involved.

However, it makes weekend warrioring really simple, you find a partner with similar climbing interests, you look at the weather forecast on Monday, Tuesday. Wednesday and approx. 6 times on Thursday, choose where you are going Thursday night. On Friday at lunchtime you check again and it’s all gone to shit so you decide at 3pm Friday to go in the opposite direction.
So careless! So free!

*This is meant to be funny but is not a joke.

Pretty close to the bone, that! 

I think the impacts are underappreciated by climbers, especially as we tend to be a reasonably eco friendly bunch. A load of massive diesels smashing around all the time is clearly suboptimal. Don't even get me started on keeping the engine on to run the heaters!

I also think it does have an impact at the sites where we visit, most obviously in terms of parking. It goes without saying that parking few big LWB vans at eg Kilnsey, or in the village at Malham, means fewer other people, climbers and non climbers, can fit in there. Same would apply at eg Burbage bridge, although there's not such a shortage of parking there I guess.

That's come across as a bit of a slagging of van owners, which wasn't my intention and is obviously hypocritical as I owned one myself until last year (a small one!). But I have been uneasy about the number of vans at climbing spots for a while now.

[SA Chris]

Could be worse, you could be flying to Southern Europe 4 or 5 times a year to clip bolts.

My weekend travel is offset by commuting 4 miles to work no more than twice a week!

[mrjonathanr]

I’ve never owned a van, but spent a lot of time cragging round France in one previously. Vans provide the freedom to go and stay wherever you like, whenever you like. Switch off the ignition, you’re at home in Céüse / Margalef / Ogwen / wherever. The freedom and convenience have got to be a big draw.