[spidermonkey09]

That would probably be enough for you to climb Jason's Roof. But let's say you climb it and decide that you really enjoy compression boulders, and your long term goal is now to climb The Big Island. Do you think you might start training a bit differently? Potentially entertaining the idea of periodization?

I know the point you're trying to make here but the sheer unlikelihood of this made me laugh. Bouldering 8C might as well be in a different galaxy! I'd be happy with a single 8A 

It's easier to answer this question talking about sport climbing cause that's my main focus. I think if I wanted to climb 8c+ or harder I would have to train seriously. Maybe I would engage with periodisation, I don't know. The whole thing seems pretty fraught with risk/guesswork given the unreliability of UK lime! I would be interested to know if Barrows has trained like this for his UK projects or whether he's just got on them when they're dry.

[tk421a]

I don't really understand the pushback against coaching. Nobody bats an eyelid at sending kids to school or university, getting driving lessons, professional training etc so why is getting someone to help you with climbing any different? It's the same as a teacher setting homework in my mind. I probably could've passed my degree just reading textbooks but the supervisions definitely helped.

Saying that as someone who has mostly self coached but used guides / instructors liberally.

[GazM]

Well that's a bit of a false equivalence isn't it? Getting a degree, learning to drive, these are things you can only really achieve without being taught by someone else, and they are things that will set you up for your whole life.
Climbing, for all but a very tiny minority, is a a hobby. And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.

[abarro81]

And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.

Perhaps without being "taught" by someone else, but not without learning lots from other people...

I would be interested to know if Barrows has trained like this for his UK projects or whether he's just got on them when they're dry.

I've not trained for much in the UK, mostly I use things in the UK as training for stuff abroad. I think Preposterous Tales is the exception to that, but it wasn't supposed to be like that - we got fucked with covid restrictions and couldnt go to Spain as planned that Jan, so I made a new focus of being in shape for that, planned to be fit in late Spring and made rough repicas to do indoor power endurance sessions on...

[tk421a]

Well that's a bit of a false equivalence isn't it? Getting a degree, learning to drive, these are things you can only really achieve without being taught by someone else, and they are things that will set you up for your whole life.
Climbing, for all but a very tiny minority, is a a hobby. And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.

I assume you meant "with being taught"?
You can learn to drive from a parent without an instructor. Not sure how much contact time an OU course has but loads of degrees are online study, postgraduate diplomas etc.
It'll vary from person to person, but I stopped going to lectures and just learnt from course notes for the last 3 years of my degree. I also haven't used any technical knowledge from it since graduating.
And I disagree that climbing being "just a hobby" means it's any less worthy of spending money on. More so if anything!
As an interesting parallel, scuba diving in the UK has a big club scene similar to climbing, but everywhere else in the world it's more commercial. If anyone goes abroad to dive they'll almost certainly pay to get a certification, and while then being able to independently dive the norm would be to continue to go to dive shops and join groups with a guide.

[Oldmanmatt]

Well that's a bit of a false equivalence isn't it? Getting a degree, learning to drive, these are things you can only really achieve without being taught by someone else, and they are things that will set you up for your whole life.
Climbing, for all but a very tiny minority, is a a hobby. And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.

Nah.
Of course you could, but probably not if you hold down a job, have a family and don’t live within an hour of the Peak.
Anyway, it’s Primacy. Start as you mean to go on, forming habits and learning best practice from the beginning. Trying to train yourself out of bad habits is a far greater ask than starting in the right place.
That and paying a reputable coach to start you on the path, rather than trying to sort the wheat from the chaff in the plethora of googled advice (if you can afford it) is probably a good idea.
You guys are googling from a position of extensive prior knowledge and debate, so you’re seeing the wood, despite the trees. Unfortunately, some of the flashiest, most in your face advice, is shit.

Ultimately, I find it hard to see the harm, it certainly won’t be a waste of money or time and is almost certainly more efficient than the traditional route.

Note:  I sold my climbing gym, I’m no longer a Lattice coach and have no skin left in the game. I did however spend more than a decade coaching climbers, OCR racers, potential military recruits (Paras and Bootnecks) and a few trying for selection. It seemed to work and my clients seemed to think it worked, but how would you really know?
Now we need the Lattice identical twin study…

[Oldmanmatt]

Well that's a bit of a false equivalence isn't it? Getting a degree, learning to drive, these are things you can only really achieve without being taught by someone else, and they are things that will set you up for your whole life.
Climbing, for all but a very tiny minority, is a a hobby. And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.

I assume you meant "with being taught"?
You can learn to drive from a parent without an instructor. Not sure how much contact time an OU course has but loads of degrees are online study, postgraduate diplomas etc.
It'll vary from person to person, but I stopped going to lectures and just learnt from course notes for the last 3 years of my degree. I also haven't used any technical knowledge from it since graduating.
And I disagree that climbing being "just a hobby" means it's any less worthy of spending money on. More so if anything!
As an interesting parallel, scuba diving in the UK has a big club scene similar to climbing, but everywhere else in the world it's more commercial. If anyone goes abroad to dive they'll almost certainly pay to get a certification, and while then being able to independently dive the norm would be to continue to go to dive shops and join groups with a guide.

I’m one of the “Original” Technical Divers and was part of the DIR and GUE movements, late ‘90s and through the 2000s as we tried to address the high mortality rates and standardise the approach. GUE, absolutely, found training from the OW (climbing equivalent of doing VDiff on a top rope) stage onwards hugely reduced mortality within their cohort. I’m far less militant these days and I feel that went too far, too much “us and them” shit, however, if your goal is deep mixed gas diving (high altitude mountaineering), PADI training is almost the worst way to start and you will have to unlearn so much, it’s a positive drag on your progress. The analogy isn’t so good, since it’s a highly technical, skills based, activity vs a more physical practice ( a high degree of theoretical knowledge is required), though the “muscle memory” and habit forming of good training practice applies equally.

None of this is a new debate. It’s probably thousands of years old.
You “could” teach yourself how to handle a broad sword, but come the battle, the other guy who started as a child, drilling and training with a watchful Master, is probably going to cleave you of your delusions and adequately demonstrate the differences.

[Wellsy]

You can learn to drive with a parent as an instructor. It's definitely much more effective to have professional lessons though, and almost everyone does. You can just learn from textbooks. Textbooks plus good teaching is better. Etc etc etc

You can get better at climbing by yourself. But you'd probably be better than you otherwise would be if you get a good coach and/or training plan. I like having a training plan. I like training and trying to get better. Personally I think it's good.

I think people's objections to lattice are less that they do sport science and coaching and more that they come off as very commercial and click bait-y to them. That may or may not be fair. There are some big names behind Lattice that are not very popular, again, may or may not be fair.

[stone]

I can totally understand why people use Lattice. It seems to work well, they seem to like it etc. All great and to be applauded etc.

Like I said I really struggle to understand the objections and feel the need to push back against them.

But I suppose the deepest mystery for me is why I don't want to use a training plan/coach/etc for myself 

I wonder whether, if I could gain insight into that, it would give me insight into the objections.

[mrjonathanr]

What did Hemingway say?

There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.

So ‘data driven’ is the antithesis to ‘the romance of adventure’. I suspect that lies (at least to some degree) behind a lot of the ambivalence.

The click baity modern marketing will probably leave a lot of older climbers (ie a big chunk of the ukb demographic) rather cold too. I suspect it works for Magnus because it’s so obviously knowing and he appears not to take himself too seriously. Though I am sure he takes the revenue very seriously indeed, of course.

[kac]

From a quick look on the lattice website could the £1,235 a year cost of a coached plan be a reason stone?

[User deactivated.]

Several people have asserted that coaching (from someone reputable) will provide better results. For the 6 month period I received coaching, I'm not sure my results were better. On paper it looks great: I climbed my first of a grade, and hit a PB on max hangs. However, on reflection, here are some of the negatives:

During the coaching, and as a result of the prescribed volume, it was the first and only time I've had elbow tendonitis.

With circa 5 years of finger training history and having reached a plateau, my initial program prescribed max hangs with linear progression - that is far too simplistic and was never going to work (and didn't). I was moved on to repeaters (still with linear progression) followed by my first ever taper / peaking phase allowing me to express strength I may already have had, hanging an additional 5kg at the end of the 6 month period. After leaving, I had much better results on my own.

I tested average on their 'core strength exercises', which actually tested endurance and not strength in a useful range for bouldering.  As a result, I was prescribed a huge amount of floor based 'core exercises'. I improved at them, but it had no positive effect on my climbing (and I haven't done any since to no ill-effect). You might think this is harmless, but it took up time and recoverable training volume.

I think there was way too much focus on 'power endurance', although learning how to program it was one of the better takeaways from the coaching.

The best bit by far, and it's something I'd advise others to consider who are looking for coaching, is the actual 'coaching' bit and not the training plan. I had regular contact with someone who'd been there and done it and knew what I should do to climb my projects.

[Dingdong]

The best bit by far, and it's something I'd advise others to consider who are looking for coaching, is the actual 'coaching' bit and not the training plan. I had regular contact with someone who'd been there and done it and knew what I should do to climb my projects.

This right here. All my coaching is tailored towards the 4/5 ongoing projects I have and having someone super knowledgable to bounce training ideas off of is so useful.

The lattice coaches have regular seminars with industry experts from different areas, climbing, strength sports etc. which allows them to have a wide  knowledge base, they’re also able to share ideas between each other which then formulates those bespoke plans. At the end of the day though it is luck of the draw as to which coach you get assigned, I’m sure some are better than others.

[mrjonathanr]

I’ve been listening to Steven Dimmitt’s Nugget podcasts a bit recently which, while interesting, can ramble a bit. Ollie Torr’s interview was in a league of its own in terms of being informative and clear. Well worth a listen.

[jwi]

Maybe I would engage with periodisation, I don't know. The whole thing seems pretty fraught with risk/guesswork given the unreliability of UK lime! I would be interested to know if Barrows has trained like this for his UK projects or whether he's just got on them when they're dry.

There are other periodisation plans than linear periodisation you know! Some of them optimised for being kind-of in form at least half of the time during the season.

[stone]

From a quick look on the lattice website could the £1,235 a year cost of a coached plan be a reason stone?

I am very tight fisted but I don't think that accounts for it. If it were offered to me as a free present, I think I would still be wary.

I suppose I care a lot more about ensuring that climbing for me remains carefree and something I look forward to rather than something I feel I ought to succeed at. There is a lot of dissonance in that. Evidently I ask lots of people at the crag etc about how to improve/avoid-injuries etc. I feel guilty about doing that with Lattice staff when they are on their time off trying to enjoy themselves 

I'm thinking of the various approaches I've seen people take to their climbing. A few years ago I bumped into a couple I'd known at Uni decades ago. It turned out we're neighbours. The neighbours apparently re-did Stanage VDiffs (leading) as what they did for climbing. They just redid them again and again. They loved it. That's great, but I don't feel compelled to do as they do.

Perhaps at the other extreme is someone I climbed with quite a lot a few years ago. He was on a total mission to do an 8a. I think he may have done a 7b+ before the mission commenced. He went all out with a coached periodised training regime. My impression was that he really enjoyed that. His climbing improved leaps and bounds. He was solid at doing 7cs in a session. He seemed extremely stressed when trying an 8a though. He seemed super stoked when he did it. I haven't seen him about much since. I bumped into him bouldering a couple of years later and he was better than me but my impression was that the training cycle etc was a one-off life tick.

Thinking of myself, I probably fall somewhere in the spectrum between the VDiff-repeating-for-decades couple and the tick-the-grade-or-die-trying mindset. But those people seemed to get a lot out of their respective approaches and I wouldn't knock either.

[User deactivated.]

That would probably be enough for you to climb Jason's Roof. But let's say you climb it and decide that you really enjoy compression boulders, and your long term goal is now to climb The Big Island. Do you think you might start training a bit differently? Potentially entertaining the idea of periodization?

I know the point you're trying to make here but the sheer unlikelihood of this made me laugh. Bouldering 8C might as well be in a different galaxy! I'd be happy with a single 8A 

It's easier to answer this question talking about sport climbing cause that's my main focus. I think if I wanted to climb 8c+ or harder I would have to train seriously. Maybe I would engage with periodisation, I don't know. The whole thing seems pretty fraught with risk/guesswork given the unreliability of UK lime! I would be interested to know if Barrows has trained like this for his UK projects or whether he's just got on them when they're dry.

I think you're seriously underestimating what you can be achieve in 10 years. If I remember correctly, you've climbed 8c, have the strength to 1 arm an edge, and you are still relatively young. I'd be very surprised if you tried and couldn't climb 9a within 10 years and maybe 9a+.

[stone]

I’ve been listening to Steven Dimmitt’s Nugget podcasts a bit recently which, while interesting, can ramble a bit. Ollie Torr’s interview was in a league of its own in terms of being informative and clear. Well worth a listen.

I listened to it when you recommended it in another thread.

Ollie needs to get a better microphone though. What he was saying was so interesting it made the struggle to hear well worth it though (I'm guessing people with decent hearing would be fine).

[abarro81]

I'd be very surprised if you tried and moved to Europe and couldn't climb 9a within 10 years and maybe 9a+.

Fixed. The original ignores the fact that for most people living in Britain is a key limiting factor in climbing hard routes at that level due to the very small amount of choice - if you don't like Malham and don't like rat crimps you have precisely one grade 9 route that I can think of to try in the whole country (or maybe 3 if you count boulder-route hybrids). And you might want to go onsighting too because onsighting is the best.

[Nails]

Preposterous Tales. With your obvious ability I'm surprised you're having to train this hard for an underground E2 in Pembroke.

[abarro81]

I am really bad at bridging grooves...

[Moo]

You can learn to drive with a parent as an instructor. It's definitely much more effective to have professional lessons though, and almost everyone does. You can just learn from textbooks. Textbooks plus good teaching is better. Etc etc etc

Part of my point is that I think you're less likely to relay a fond memory with a driving instructor versus when you nearly sent you and you're mum into a ditch.

To be clear I've never said that you'll be better at climbing if you don't have coach in terms of absolute grades in fact I know the opposite to be true.

However if you're not an a professional climber then I don't think the absolute grades shouldn't really matter and in my humble opinion you're better off focusing on the experience.

If however the experience of working with a coach to improve your climbing is what you're really looking for then crack on and enjoy it.

The best bit by far, and it's something I'd advise others to consider who are looking for coaching, is the actual 'coaching' bit and not the training plan. I had regular contact with someone who'd been there and done it and knew what I should do to climb my projects.

This right here. All my coaching is tailored towards the 4/5 ongoing projects I have and having someone super knowledgable to bounce training ideas off of is so useful.

I think this bit here has illuminated my thinking a bit, it's the insertion of money into that bit of the experience. Bouncing your ideas of a couple of mates at the crag and trying to get up something together is awesome ( which I'm sure you'll agree ). It turns it into a shared experience which is what the climbing community is all about.

Maybe it's the loss of that community I'm lamenting a bit, it's being gradually replaced with a paid for experience ?

Obviously a paid for coach will likely be more effective at helping get you up stuff but again I'd say it's the journey I value as much as the end result and I'd still feel that a coach would diminish that somewhat by removing the element of discovery.

[Dingdong]

You can learn to drive with a parent as an instructor. It's definitely much more effective to have professional lessons though, and almost everyone does. You can just learn from textbooks. Textbooks plus good teaching is better. Etc etc etc

Part of my point is that I think you're less likely to relay a fond memory with a driving instructor versus when you nearly sent you and you're mum into a ditch.

To be clear I've never said that you'll be better at climbing if you don't have coach in terms of absolute grades in fact I know the opposite to be true.

However if you're not an a professional climber then I don't think the absolute grades shouldn't really matter and in my humble opinion you're better off focusing on the experience.

If however the experience of working with a coach to improve your climbing is what you're really looking for then crack on and enjoy it.

The best bit by far, and it's something I'd advise others to consider who are looking for coaching, is the actual 'coaching' bit and not the training plan. I had regular contact with someone who'd been there and done it and knew what I should do to climb my projects.

This right here. All my coaching is tailored towards the 4/5 ongoing projects I have and having someone super knowledgable to bounce training ideas off of is so useful.

I think this bit here has illuminated my thinking a bit, it's the insertion of money into that bit of the experience. Bouncing your ideas of a couple of mates at the crag and trying to get up something together is awesome ( which I'm sure you'll agree ). It turns it into a shared experience which is what the climbing community is all about.

Maybe it's the loss of that community I'm lamenting a bit, it's being gradually replaced with a paid for experience ?

Obviously a paid for coach will likely be more effective at helping get you up stuff but again I'd say it's the journey I value as much as the end result and I'd still feel that a coach would diminish that somewhat by removing the element of discovery.

What loss of community? It's probably more communal now than it was 30 years ago, I go outside 3 or so times a week and always go with friends or bump into people I know who I end up climbing with?

If i'm projecting something at my limit, I go on my own, I don't enjoy limit bouldering with other people because I can't get into the right headspace, I still have the journey of discovery on my own terms, it's just that my coach helps me align my training to those goals so my body is robust and doesn't get injured when im trying limit stuff. It's not like they're grabbing my arms and legs and moving my hips for me 

[Moo]

That’s really good to hear I guess there’ll always be a contingent of people who value getting out and about.

I know what you mean about trying hard on your own it puts me off when I think I’m taking up other peoples time. Bit of ball ache setting up a camera if you’re trying something closer to your limit though.

[cowboyhat]

This thread is classic UKB, apart from the lack of humour.

A general observation, which is thirty years in gestation, is that a lot of people really just don't like the idea of anyone making a living/ any money out of rock climbing.

Just go out and wax the curb in front of your house, jumpers for goal posts, shaking your way up Inverted V is still free. Some other people want to improve and think getting help, if only to make sense of the frankly baffling amount of information available now, is a good idea.

A one time price of less than £200 for a course by the worlds greatest climber is not piss take at all. Its probably quite good value. And it isn't really aimed at any of us, so it doesn't matter. I wish him well.