[Dingdong]

So who’s got the contract? Is it Mone again? Why would a small footbridge cost £180k, someone please enlighten me!

https://www.instagram.com/p/C21m3QuM2OZ/?igsh=MTBjcWQ2OWJzcTF5

[spidermonkey09]

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/learning-about/news/current-news/replacing-the-footbridge-at-cragx-mill

Some more context. I'll dismantle the existing one for 20k...

[remus]

Anyone want to join Remus Bridge Building Ltd? £100k bid, £1k materials from b&q, £99k profit.

[remus]

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/learning-about/news/current-news/replacing-the-footbridge-at-cragx-mill

Some more context. I'll dismantle the existing one for 20k...

Link is broken due to the UKB auto-correcter, working version here https://shorturl.at/gPW26

[Hoseyb]

So who’s got the contract? Is it Mone again? Why would a small footbridge cost £180k, someone please enlighten me!

https://www.instagram.com/p/C21m3QuM2OZ/?igsh=MTBjcWQ2OWJzcTF5

With the way litigation culture is going I imagine it will be hopelessly over engineered, and some of the money would be for liability insurance and maintenance contracts

[Dingdong]

So who’s got the contract? Is it Mone again? Why would a small footbridge cost £180k, someone please enlighten me!

https://www.instagram.com/p/C21m3QuM2OZ/?igsh=MTBjcWQ2OWJzcTF5

With the way litigation culture is going I imagine it will be hopelessly over engineered, and some of the money would be for liability insurance and maintenance contracts

I imagine they’ll go bowderstone way and put up some hideous metal contraption. I still don’t get where the £180k is going because they reckon it’ll require minimal maintenance afterwards…

I think someone’s getting paid well from this…

[Bradders]

Are any of you structural engineers?

I love a good pile on, but why the scepticism?

It's a fairly long footbridge, in an area extremely prone to flooding, across an active, steep water course with limited vehicular access, which needs to be sufficiently resilient to withstand all the abuse of a changing climate with minimal ongoing maintenance requirement, all in an area of outstanding natural beauty that has to be preserved during construction.

Similarly the existing one needs to be dismantled in a careful manner which avoids damage to the surrounding area.

Unfortunately, nice things cost money. Sure the army could knock another one up, but there's a reason the current one only lasted 30-odd years.

[Hoseyb]

Probably pays for a series of risk assessments prior to demolition, rather than a bunch of climbers turning up at midnight with chainsaws and waders

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/learning-about/news/current-news/replacing-the-footbridge-at-cragx-mill

Some more context. I'll dismantle the existing one for 20k...

[Hoseyb]

But also what Bradders says...

[teestub]

Just the time getting the appropriate permits from the EA and Natural England for working near the watercourse and within a SSSI will prob run to £10k or more. 

Is there a road down to the bridge location or will they need to build one, or use a big crane with an associated road closure to get the materials in?

Lots to consider for such a small project, things have moved on quite a bit since the army hoiked a couple of RSJs and some wood down there 40 years ago.

[Will Hunt]

What Bradders said. I'm sure Paul will be along to tell us more but £180k is fuck all when it comes to a capital project. You've got to pay some engineers to design it, planning permission, environmental licensing, access is difficult, working in water, in a National Park, materials, plant, building something that won't just wash away in 20 years time and not be a pain in the arse to maintain for those 20 years, making sure that nobody dies while you're building it. It all costs money and yes, there will be an amount of profit for the engineering firm that takes it on, otherwise they wouldn't be in business (see how the razor-thin-margins business model worked out for Carillion). The amount of profit is controlled by market competition.

 

[spidermonkey09]

I am joking really, obviously these things can't be done on a shoestring. It does feel a little frustrating that there is quite so much paperwork to do though. Similar to my frustrations with planning for houses I guess.

Separate point but short term is not in and of itself necessarily bad. Its a null point because the various permissions required preclude it, but say it was possible to whack another wooden one in for 40k that would last 40 years...I'd do that and then do it again in 2064.

[SA Chris]

Just the time getting the appropriate permits from the EA and Natural England for working near the watercourse and within a SSSI will prob run to £10k or more. 

I expect every design, procedure and plan will be subject to 3rd party review, resubmission and revision by or on behalf of everyone involved. This consumes time and cost at an alarming rate.

[Dingdong]

Are any of you structural engineers?

I love a good pile on, but why the scepticism?

It's a fairly long footbridge, in an area extremely prone to flooding, across an active, steep water course with limited vehicular access, which needs to be sufficiently resilient to withstand all the abuse of a changing climate with minimal ongoing maintenance requirement, all in an area of outstanding natural beauty that has to be preserved during construction.

Similarly the existing one needs to be dismantled in a careful manner which avoids damage to the surrounding area.

Unfortunately, nice things cost money. Sure the army could knock another one up, but there's a reason the current one only lasted 30-odd years.

As much as all that makes sense, my skepticism comes from the government and local councils splooshing money away on super expensive contracts to firms their mates own, so excuse me for being skeptical about this kind of stuff.

I understand that there’s a lot of work entailed, but even the fact that an initial survey costs 10 grand is insane to me.

Glad to see they’re getting some funding from multiple sources at least. Like I said, I just hope it’s not money spaffed up the wall for some cunts to get richer as is the norm.

[teestub]

I am joking really, obviously these things can't be done on a shoestring. It does feel a little frustrating that there is quite so much paperwork to do though. Similar to my frustrations with planning for houses I guess.

The planning process can seem frustrating until you look at all the stories of where the process hasn’t been followed, and you end up with houses on top of landfills without gas protection that blow up, or houses built on floodplains that no one wants to live in, or chicken farms directly next to rivers, or massive fish kills on rivers next to construction sites because they don’t have appropriate run off management.

Hopefully we can stay away from ‘elfin safety gawn maaaad’ commentary!

[spidermonkey09]

Of course; its not unreasonable to want to plot a middle ground between what you describe and development being blocked simply because it spoils some boomers views though! For the record I'm not advocating a return to the days of navvies working in abysmal conditions.

[Tony S]

The comedy of a thread by climbers whinging about actual money being stumped up to fix (rebuild) a bridge heavily used by climbers.

[remus]

The comedy of a thread by climbers whinging about actual money being stumped up to fix (rebuild) a bridge heavily used by climbers.

£20k is being stumped up, they're asking for donations to cover the rest.

[spidermonkey09]

To be fair, thats not quite right.

'The overall estimated cost of a replacement bridge is expected to be around £180,00 - £200,000. The PDNPA is committing £20,000 to cover the costs of removing the old bridge. The Peak District National Park Foundation has given a £20,000 grant towards the project, and the Access and Conservation Trust, the charity of the British Mountaineering Council an additional grant of £10,000. This leaves a shortfall of potentially up to £150,000.

We now have the opportunity to apply for a significant project grant from the Farming in Protected Landscapes fund which would make the project possible in 2024. However, the application will be much stronger with additional donations from the community and make it more likely to be funded.'

https://peakdistrict.enthuse.com/cf/cragx-mill-bridge

This link wont work either but you can click through to it from the previous link.

[remus]

Are any of you structural engineers?

I love a good pile on, but why the scepticism?

It's a fairly long footbridge, in an area extremely prone to flooding, across an active, steep water course with limited vehicular access, which needs to be sufficiently resilient to withstand all the abuse of a changing climate with minimal ongoing maintenance requirement, all in an area of outstanding natural beauty that has to be preserved during construction.

Similarly the existing one needs to be dismantled in a careful manner which avoids damage to the surrounding area.

Unfortunately, nice things cost money. Sure the army could knock another one up, but there's a reason the current one only lasted 30-odd years.

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask whether it is value for money. From my perspective as a lay-person, the main structure of the bridge (two big I-beams and the concrete it sits on) look to be in reasonable condition with a rotting wooden structure built on top. Hypothetically, why is it not possible to replace the wooden structure on top of the I-beams? It might only last another 30 years, but if that costs £10k instead of £180k then redoing that work every few decades seems a cost efficient solution.

Of course Im almost certainly missing much of the complication and expense here (maybe the foundations are shit and the whole thing needs redoing, maybe the I beams are completely rusted through, all the access considerations mentioned up thread etc.), but it would be good if there was some attempt at justifying the cost.

[remus]

To be fair, thats not quite right.

'The overall estimated cost of a replacement bridge is expected to be around £180,00 - £200,000. The PDNPA is committing £20,000 to cover the costs of removing the old bridge. The Peak District National Park Foundation has given a £20,000 grant towards the project, and the Access and Conservation Trust, the charity of the British Mountaineering Council an additional grant of £10,000. This leaves a shortfall of potentially up to £150,000.

We now have the opportunity to apply for a significant project grant from the Farming in Protected Landscapes fund which would make the project possible in 2024. However, the application will be much stronger with additional donations from the community and make it more likely to be funded.'

https://peakdistrict.enthuse.com/cf/cragx-mill-bridge

This link wont work either but you can click through to it from the previous link.

My mistake, thanks for the added detail.

[peewee]

As its part of my day job organising and managing installs of similar bridges the estimate doesn't seem too far off market rate, the costs of bridges regardless of material goes up steeply with longer spans, up to around 12m prices seem reasonable but after that.....  Access and hire of special plant etc for getting materials to and from site also isn't cheap.

Stubly also made a good point Re the Environment Agency and conservation areas etc can add a lot of paperwork and cost and influence how and what is done on site.

[spidermonkey09]

Some more detail in Bonjoy's updates here: https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,33744.msg682610.html#msg682610

Sounds like the whole structure has been condemned by civil engineers, which I might cynically suggest is unsurprising 

But seriously I get where Tony S is coming from, it is good there is action being taken to replace it.

[Steve R]

The planning process can seem frustrating until you look at all the stories of where the process hasn’t been followed, and you end up with houses on top of landfills without gas protection that blow up, or houses built on floodplains that no one wants to live in, or chicken farms directly next to rivers, or massive fish kills on rivers next to construction sites because they don’t have appropriate run off management.

Hopefully we can stay away from ‘elfin safety gawn maaaad’ commentary!

Incoming! Clear madness. We're not talking about chicken farms, construction sites, houses here. We're talking about a little footbridge over a little stream. 

[Tony S]

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask whether it is value for money. From my perspective as a lay-person, the main structure of the bridge (two big I-beams and the concrete it sits on) look to be in reasonable condition with a rotting wooden structure built on top. Hypothetically, why is it not possible to replace the wooden structure on top of the I-beams? It might only last another 30 years, but if that costs £10k instead of £180k then redoing that work every few decades seems a cost efficient solution.

Perhaps, you could ask for these details in a more constructive fashion from the body commissioning the work. Or search through the minutes of their meetings to save them some staff time (which costs money by the way).

Your previous self seemed quite keen on the idea:

Good shout. Accessing that side of the river is a pain with the bridge closed.

It’s blatantly obvious that it is a fairly niche project: a very difficult site (SSSI, steep terrain, difficult access, watercourse, ancient weir) with a lot of sensitivities. 180k does not buy you a lot these days. Quite frankly, it’s a drop in the ocean.

Quit whinging and send your money to: PDNP Foundation