[sdm]

I’m gonna go out on a limb here, but from your post sdm it sounds like you’re maybe single and don’t have kids?

Correct  . I'm impressed that people with young kids have the time or money to do anything.

I do know people who have 2 young kids, manage to cook everything from scratch, do all the parenting things, and both parents work full time. But they're the exception, and I don't know how they manage it.

[teestub]

Also, the idea that people are too busy watching TV to cook healthy meals is uncharacteristically ungenerous of you stone, and a bit 'millennials could afford a house if they stopped having avocado toast and takeaway coffee'.

I was going to write the same, last thing I would have expected from Stone from his posting history!

[seankenny]

If you go to India or Pakistan, you see people cooking amazing food with just some scrap metal as utensils, an open fire, and extraordinarily cheap ingredients.

Most food preparation in South Asia is done by either women, or domestic servants*. I am very confident about this as I have lots of in-laws in the Indian subcontinent and this is exactly what happens in their homes, which I have visited many times. I’ve also done a bunch of work trips to obscure and very non-touristy parts of rural India and Pakistan and seen how this gender divide works - we visitors are powerful and important so the men speak to us, the women bring us food and then disappear again.

This whole set up is predicated on patterns of female employment and status which haven’t existed in the U.K. for a very long time.

The only thing that’s spot on about this post is that the food they make is absolutely amazing.


* Sometimes the domestic servants are men… but who do you think oversees them?

[spidermonkey09]

Its not about whether stuff is free, although you are clearly a FB marketplace/gumtree power user SDM!

Its about whether you have the space for it and the money to run it/fix it when they break. In an ideal world I would like to have a big chest freezer so I have more options for cooking, but theres nowhere to put it so its not an option. Not hard to see how similar might apply to even having a freezer in the first place. If its a choice between fridge and freezer fridge wins every time.

[stone]

I'm saying the ultra-processed food industry is inflicting mass harm on hundreds of millions of people.

Evidently, I came across as blaming the victims of that. That was a communication failure on my part -sorry.

The ultra-processed food industry uses an arsenal of tactics, including misinformation. I don't feel regret at trying to resist them.

I think it is a disgrace that people in the UK are in poverty. I also think eg Jack Monroe is totally correct in saying that ultra-processed food is best avoided even if you are in poverty.

I also think that much of the problem is that we have been peddled the notion that food prep is a chore rather than a joy to be cherished. I've never had children but I still have happy memories of joining in with food preparation as a young child and of cooking large family meals by myself as a tweenager. I've seen my nephew and niece doing the same. So I really don't think eating real food is only an option for households without children.

PS I do like watching Masterchef. I admit it's lazy of me to watch TV (and post on here etc)

[lagerstarfish]

I have a memory of Stone cooking himself large amounts of boiled potatoes and rice whilst we talked about the most cost efficient food calories available to us
Sitting in front of his Wild Country Quasar (I think)
this wasn't recently

[stone]

Most food preparation in South Asia is done by either women, or domestic servants........
......This whole set up is predicated on patterns of female employment and status which haven’t existed in the U.K. for a very long time.

I think my greatest cooking inspiration was a neighbour when I was growing up. She was from India and had moved to the UK with her husband as a young couple. She worked full time but cooked utterly amazing food, with incredible speed. I think the key thing was having a relatively small repertoire of dishes, but having all of them perfected and so practiced that they could be cooked effortlessly.

I've aspired to copy that approach myself, inspired by her.

[seankenny]

[I think the key thing was having a relatively small repertoire of dishes, but having all of them perfected and so practiced that they could be cooked effortlessly.

How did you know it was effortless, rather than an extremely difficult and unfair effort she was making under the weight of considerable social and familial expectations and which she felt she had to grin and bear because divorce was not an option? Is this not a textbook example of really under-rating women’s labour?

I’d also take issue with the notion of cooking Indian/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan food as mastering a small number of dishes - we are talking about sophisticated and varied food cultures here.

Btw I not only enjoy watching Masterchef, I even once cooked a dish from the show… 

[stone]

How did you know it was effortless, rather than an extremely difficult and unfair effort she was making under the weight of considerable social and familial expectations and which she felt she had to grin and bear because divorce was not an option? Is this not a textbook example of really under-rating women’s labour?

Well it seemed to be done with in a similar style etc to eg Adam Long demonstrating Deliverance. She would rustle it up whilst chatting away and appeared to revel in the mastery of it.

My better half doesn't cook. My sister doesn't cook (her partner does all of their cooking). I suppose if I had the same antipathy to cooking that my other half does, then things would be different for us. Now you point that out it seems pretty obvious!

I do think it is messed up though how cooking has been relegated from being a fun thing that can be joyful to master to being considered a dumb chore. I think the processed food industry makes an effort to perpetuate that.

[thunderbeest]

You don't think it could relate to the specialist society? I'm always surprised how many people can't fix things that break down in their house, because they're a plumber's job or a carpenter. But then I have been happy about people still knowing how to cook and look at it as only a chefs speciality. But maybe that's changed in some places already.

[Oldmanmatt]

If it doesn’t go in the air fryer or microwave, I can’t be arsed when I’m alone. Macros are right, reasonable balance of vitamins and minerals; I usually make it taste pretty good with minimal seasoning. I’ll cook for the family when I’m home (Mrs OMM don’t cook).
On the other hand, I can pretty much fix anything round the house except complex electronics, but I can change a PCB. I ask the kids for software stuff… 🤣

[stone]

You don't think it could relate to the specialist society? I'm always surprised how many people can't fix things that break down in their house, because they're a plumber's job or a carpenter. But then I have been happy about people still knowing how to cook and look at it as only a chefs speciality. But maybe that's changed in some places already.

I think you're totally correct.

The issue though is that people employing plumbers etc doesn't lead to a huge health crisis. I think evidence is mounting that people moving away from cooking from scratch is leading to a huge health crisis. The raw economics behind it drives convenience food to being effectively toxic food. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0c98bfy

[seankenny]

How did you know it was effortless, rather than an extremely difficult and unfair effort she was making under the weight of considerable social and familial expectations and which she felt she had to grin and bear because divorce was not an option? Is this not a textbook example of really under-rating women’s labour?

Well it seemed to be done with in a similar style etc to eg Adam Long demonstrating Deliverance. She would rustle it up whilst chatting away and appeared to revel in the mastery of it.

I hate to break your orientalist fantasy but have you ever heard of the phrase “keeping up appearances”? Has it ever occurred to you that an Asian family might want to look a particular way for their white neighbours in the considerably less tolerant 70s and 80s?

It’s the “small repertoire of dishes” that gives it away. Desi food is usually served with many more different items than is usual in European cuisine, if someone only does the same three or four things then they’re essentially making the same dinner over and over again. I know women who do exactly this, and who hate the chore they are tasked to do by the weight of expectations. It does look skilled from the outside, but you’re not seeing the full picture. (And I bet you never saw the man cook, wonder why eh?)

I do think it is messed up though how cooking has been relegated from being a fun thing that can be joyful to master to being considered a dumb chore. I think the processed food industry makes an effort to perpetuate that.

People have preferences and are not just the playthings of enormous corporations. I sometimes wonder where the profoundly illiberal views you propound in your posts come from. Maybe it’s this assumption?

[stone]

Sean, I totally appreciate that you have massively more experience and insight into South Asian culture than me. As you say, it is quite possible that I totally misinterpreted the situation at that neighbours. Anyway regardless of whether it is based on my misconceptions or on reality, it inspired me to learn to cook a small set of dishes really well and really fast, from scratch, and I enjoy doing that and people have told me it tastes good. They are cheap and include lots of different veg, wholefoods etc.

I'll ask my mum about that neighbour's cooking next time I chat with her. She was a pretty close friend of my mum's.

It is possible that the neighbour wasn't following traditional ways of doing things. She always made pretty much square chapatis. That seems to me the sign of someone who's a bit of a maverick. When I ate there, we didn't ever have numerous dishes. It was generally just chapatis and one pulse or vegetable dish. Sometimes paratha or samosas but my recollection is that those would just be on their own. I'll ask my mum.

[stone]

People have preferences and are not just the playthings of enormous corporations. I sometimes wonder where the profoundly illiberal views you propound in your posts come from. Maybe it’s this assumption?

Sean, it's really worth checking out that podcast I keep linking to. The presenter is an obese public health expert and clinician. He basically is saying that he was successfully manipulated by enormous corporations. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0c98qw1

[kac]

Stone FWIW my partner's from Pakistani heritage and you haven't said anything that would offend her. Making chapattis is an amazing skill she is proud of. The enjoyment of cooking for others is the same whatever ethnicity you are. Only thing is that although delicious it's not necessarily a healthy diet - have you ever had a Pakistani desert?

[seankenny]

Nothing Stone said was remotely offensive, I just think using an anecdote like this without considering the wider social context is a bit short sighted. We have tons of evidence from social sciences on the one hand to numerous writers or artists on the other about the patriarchal nature of South Asian society and how this impacts food culture. To hold those societies up as an example of food production that we should copy is to ignore all that stuff for a fantasy.

For sure making a good roti is an awesome skill and one that anyone should be proud of (my own mother in law certainly is), and enjoyment of cooking for others is a human thing. But there’s also an additional layer of expectation and subtle coercion going on around women’s cooking that perhaps we should be aware of before berating some people or holding others up as examples? I’ve also seen this amongst older generations in my own family so it’s not as if it’s something British people are immune from either.

Also, all this talk of “mastery” alongside “quickly cooking a limited number of dishes” is nonsense. Mastery lies in breadth as well as depth. That’s the whole point of the excellent skill tests in Professional Masterchef - can they do all of the things we’d expect a chef to do, as the title says, it is literally a show about kitchen mastery!

[Dingdong]

This thread has so far covered:

Elite athlete grade payments

Grade defamation

Bosi on shadow play

36chambers almost stealing a pastry

Whether sponsorships by cigarette and sugar companies are bad

ADHD

Sugar effect on children's behaviour

Difficulty in cooking Asian food

Stone being offensive

  never change UKB

[stone]

On reflection, I don't even know why I mentioned that the neighbour was from India. It's pretty irrelevant really, especially if, as Sean says, the points I took from the experience aren't something that can be taken from the South Asian cooking culture in general.

I should have just said she was a neighbour and family friend, who cooked a few amazingly delicious dishes, incredibly well, from scratch, incredibly quickly.

Oh....I see, I was digging myself further into a hole after saying something else about cooking in India .

[jwi]

To hold those societies up as an example of food production that we should copy is to ignore all that stuff for a fantasy.

No, when it comes to eating, you should copy France. Productions, culture, etc. As should most European countries (bar maybe Greece, I do not know enough) who wants their citizens to live longer, healthier lifes.

[M1V0]

This thread has so far covered:

Elite athlete grade payments

Grade defamation

Bosi on shadow play

36chambers almost stealing a pastry

Whether sponsorships by cigarette and sugar companies are bad

ADHD

Sugar effect on children's behaviour

Difficulty in cooking Asian food

Stone being offensive

  never change UKB

having not read the thread in its entirety - it was quite fun looking at this list and trying to figure out each segue.

Some are obvious but some are more fun, e.g.:

Grade defamation -> Bosi on shadow play = "but what about the G?! He's a magician."

Bosi on shadow play -> 36chambers almost stealing a pastry = "personal beef with Bosi"

Sugar effect on children's behaviour -> Difficulty in cooking Asian food = "badly behaviour children can't cook Asian food well"

Difficulty in cooking Asian food -> Stone being offensive = "I hear you're a racist now, Stone" or "Stone implying that the above-mentioned badly behaving children are terrible, terrible people".

[thunderbeest]

To hold those societies up as an example of food production that we should copy is to ignore all that stuff for a fantasy.

No, when it comes to eating, you should copy France. Productions, culture, etc. As should most European countries (bar maybe Greece, I do not know enough) who wants their citizens to live longer, healthier lifes.

But why do they have 5 pharmacies in every small village and sell mostly homeopathic stuff..

[jwi]

But why do they have 5 pharmacies in every small village and sell mostly homeopathic stuff..

Because you can go into any of those pharmacies and get your prescription medicine whitin 24 hours, and they have to make money somehow. Why not fleece the idiots?

Has nothing to do with their food.

But poor French people live longer and are less obese than rich Americans. Rich French people live very long lives indeed.

[Falling Down]

I subscribe to a foodie substack called Vittles. Here’s a recent, thoughtful article on UPF’s https://open.substack.com/pub/vittles/p/the-hater-ultra-processed-foods?r=4n4mm&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post

[Fultonius]

But why do they have 5 pharmacies in every small village and sell mostly homeopathic stuff..

Because you can go into any of those pharmacies and get your prescription medicine whitin 24 hours, and they have to make money somehow. Why not fleece the idiots?

Has nothing to do with their food.

But poor French people live longer and are less obese than rich Americans. Rich French people live very long lives indeed.

I always though the Italian diet was the one to be revered for long life?

Interestingly (tangent alert), the French have much lower drunkeness than another parts of Europe, because alcohol is frequently consumed with food, but they actually have much higher rates of liver disease. All from memory, but I'm pretty sure studies will back up my infallible memory