[Bonjoy]

I've heard it said that some top end US sponsorship deals have grade based payment clauses.
If true this would certainly create perverse incentives, drive grade inflation at the top, and put all the pieces in place for some interesting encounters with 'alternative facts' when the euros turn up.

[Dingdong]

Imagine losing $5k cause will came and downgraded sleepwalker  you’d be fuming!

[Fultonius]

Imagine losing $5k cause will came and downgraded sleepwalker  you’d be fuming!

Hope he has good insurance, for when the inevitable grade defamation case hits the courts...

[yetix]

I wonder how these contracts work with downgrades and FAs... Would love to read over one

Edit, and upgrades tbf. Woods has had a few go in each direction (sleepwalker and the game both possibly due to hold erosion vs hypno and ice knife)

Edit again got my dates wrong on ice knife and hypno so removed the incorrect info

[Dingdong]

Mammut have a hitlist

Sleepwalker - $10k sit $15k

Alphane - $15k

Burden of dreams - used to be $20k but you only get $15k now

West side story - $25k

[jwi]

I've heard it said that some top end US sponsorship deals have grade based payment clauses.
If true this would certainly create perverse incentives, drive grade inflation at the top, and put all the pieces in place for some interesting encounters with 'alternative facts' when the euros turn up.

That is daft, but the same exists surely to a certain degree in Europe as well. No one gets into the news for putting up an 8B+/9a but for an 8C+/9b you get mentions in all media. No mentions = no cash.

Its all fun and games until the Belgians turn up and piss on your boulder/multi-pitch.

[User deactivated.]

Mammut have a hitlist

Sleepwalker - $10k sit $15k

Alphane - $15k

Burden of dreams - used to be $20k but you only get $15k now

West side story - $25k

$20k for Backflip sit (including danger bonus)

[Fultonius]

I've heard it said that some top end US sponsorship deals have grade based payment clauses.
If true this would certainly create perverse incentives, drive grade inflation at the top, and put all the pieces in place for some interesting encounters with 'alternative facts' when the euros turn up.

That is daft, but the same exists surely to a certain degree in Europe as well. No one gets into the news for putting up an 8B+/9a but for an 8C+/9b you get mentions in all media. No mentions = no cash.

Its all fun and games until the Belgians turn up and piss on your boulder/multi-pitch.

Until they don't, and Caldwell laughs all the way to the bank.

[duncan]

I've heard it said that some top end US sponsorship deals have grade based payment clauses.
If true this would certainly create perverse incentives, drive grade inflation at the top, and put all the pieces in place for some interesting encounters with 'alternative facts' when the euros turn up.

A recent episode of Careless Talk suggested Will had been very successful at maxing out his grade-based incentives from Adidas (if I recall correctly, may have been a different podcast but name checks-out)

A canny athlete manager would include a clause in his contract incentivising provocative downgrades! 

[Dexter]

Mammut have a hitlist

Sleepwalker - $10k sit $15k

Alphane - $15k

Burden of dreams - used to be $20k but you only get $15k now

West side story - $25k

Can someone please put out a $100k contract on Shadowplay

[jwi]

I've heard it said that some top end US sponsorship deals have grade based payment clauses.
If true this would certainly create perverse incentives, drive grade inflation at the top, and put all the pieces in place for some interesting encounters with 'alternative facts' when the euros turn up.

That is daft, but the same exists surely to a certain degree in Europe as well. No one gets into the news for putting up an 8B+/9a but for an 8C+/9b you get mentions in all media. No mentions = no cash.

Its all fun and games until the Belgians turn up and piss on your boulder/multi-pitch.

Until they don't, and Caldwell laughs all the way to the bank.

True that, but anything that survives an Ondra onslaught, should live forever.

I have long hypothesised that the very real threat of Ondra onsighting your 9a with ease keeps grades somewhat honest in Europe up until about 9a. Witness the mayhem when he turned up in RRG.

[Dingdong]

Mammut have a hitlist

Sleepwalker - $10k sit $15k

Alphane - $15k

Burden of dreams - used to be $20k but you only get $15k now

West side story - $25k

Can someone please put out a $100k contract on Shadowplay

Surprised Bosi/Aidan havent put some time into it

[yetix]

Mammut have a hitlist

Sleepwalker - $10k sit $15k

Alphane - $15k

Burden of dreams - used to be $20k but you only get $15k now

West side story - $25k

Can someone please put out a $100k contract on Shadowplay

Bosi said its possible no? Would a repeat even if not climbed how John claimed with his Vague layback comments change people's perceptions? Curious...

[teestub]

I remember chatting to a Slovenian climber pre instagram, and they got extra cash from their federation for climbing hard routes and boulders (think it started at Font 7c+ then), so cash for grades deffo not a new thing.

[36chambers]

Mammut have a hitlist

Sleepwalker - $10k sit $15k

Alphane - $15k

Burden of dreams - used to be $20k but you only get $15k now

West side story - $25k

After topping out a boulder in Font, I looked across to see a beautifully wrapped pastry carefully perched on the far end of said boulder. As I slowly moved towards it, a pair of hands suddenly appeared on the lip below, followed by a heel and eventually half a torso as someone tried desperately to mantle it out. Face inching towards their prize, closer and closer, until a sudden gasp of despair erupted as they plummeted back down away from glory.

It took all my restraint to not sneak away with the pastry myself. After all, why not? I did make it to the top.

[mattbirddog]

I've heard it said that some top end US sponsorship deals have grade based payment clauses.
If true this would certainly create perverse incentives, drive grade inflation at the top, and put all the pieces in place for some interesting encounters with 'alternative facts' when the euros turn up.

Just chipping in here as someone who deals with these contracts:

- Yes, these clauses exist and yes I agree with the perverse incentives argument.
- It is difficult because bonus clauses can incentivise some climbers and help the brand but I think where it works best is on hard repeats (for example Will doing Burden deserves a bonus of some element).
- Where it gets messy is on first ascents because as you said, it can encourage athletes, even subtly to 'give it a pop' at a harder grade and see where it sticks.

I think for a lot of the elite folk, it is one factor amongst many when considering a grade but it is a factor.

Another line of thought is to give it a hard grade to encourage wads to come and try it. If Honey Badger was a 9A, I am sure you would have had travelling Wads desperately trying to dry it off last year but at 8C+? Maybe less of a prize but that is what Will genuinely thought it was at that grade so stuck with it.

As a climbing fan, any lever which brands can support athletes to go and push the limits of the sport is no bad thing and with limited other funding streams to support Will, Aidan, Simon et al to try and push the limits then I am for it but .... with a asterisk attached. 

[yetix]

Thanks for the insight Matt.

How would it have worked if an althete upgraded or downgraded a hard repeat (such as burden) compared to if they made no comment to suggest a grade change? Genuinely curious on that personally.

[mattbirddog]

Thanks for the insight Matt.

How would it have worked if an athlete upgraded or downgraded a hard repeat (such as burden) compared to if they made no comment to suggest a grade change? Genuinely curious on that personally.

Short answer: contracts are rarely that detailed to reflect on something like this. If the ascent made a load of news then it would make less of a difference regardless.

Some contracts I have seen have 1st Ascent bonuses, some have 'hard ascent' bonus (which grading changes over time as sport progresses) but all are pretty flexible in my experience if the ascent is notable amongst the community.

For example, Terranova, by rights should not be pretty notable on paper as it is a pretty ugly traverse at 8C but its mystique (largely thanks to Will's attempts granted) means that it would be a major ascent now if pulled off.

Downgrade clause: I have not seen a contract with that level of detail (yet), however, if you have a downgrade clause then again you would just open yourself up to perverse consequences again, most notably that Nico Pelerson would start rolling up to crags in a Bentley.

All this is one of those - 'it isn't perfect but it just about works' tools.

On a wider note, I think as the number of 8C+/ 9A boulders increases across the world and the number of ascents grow, there will be a time for a proper conversation on the appropriateness of grading at the top end. 8C+/9A are beginning to feel like blunt tools to describe the breadth of problems sitting at those grades at the moment.

However, gaining a consensus on that view seems difficult and we probably need to wait a couple of years when we have more good problems at that grade and more climbers with experience and the CV at that level to reflect on it properly.

[User deactivated.]

Performance bonuses incentivise grade inflation, but is there any evidence it has actually happened (at the top end where this is relevant)? It seems balanced by the risk of a downgrade keeping people honest. Naturally, there are many examples where grades have indeed come down since the FA (e.g. better beta), but all the current 9A proposals, for example, seem well founded based on level of effort and the ability of the ascensionists.

It's possible that the performance bonuses actually provide a necessary upward force on grades, otherwise we end up with no one wanting to take the risk of proposing a big number. I wonder if performance bonuses were prevalent at the time 8C was (allegedly) getting ever harder with no one wanting to propose 8C+?

Either way, i'm all for rock climbers getting paid. In other 'core' sports (e.g. skateboarding), it's less taboo to take a cheque from Red Bull.

[yetix]

Super interesting, thanks for the insight Matt.

What do you think would be a better tool than the blunt tool of 8C+/9A grade out of curiosity

[joel182]

Either way, i'm all for rock climbers getting paid. In other 'core' sports (e.g. skateboarding), it's less taboo to take a cheque from over-caffeinated sugary drink company.

It's not really tabboo in climbing, is it? It seems like basically all pro-climbers are either working with Red Bu|l or Tenzing these days, though I guess Red Bu|l's pockets stretch a little deeper

[mattbirddog]

Performance bonuses incentivise grade inflation, but is there any evidence it has actually happened (at the top end where this is relevant)? It seems balanced by the risk of a downgrade keeping people honest. Naturally, there are many examples where grades have indeed come down since the FA (e.g. better beta), but all the current 9A proposals, for example, seem well founded based on level of effort and the ability of the ascensionists.

It's possible that the performance bonuses actually provide a necessary upward force on grades, otherwise we end up with no one wanting to take the risk of proposing a big number. I wonder if performance bonuses were prevalent at the time 8C was (allegedly) getting ever harder with no one wanting to propose 8C+?

Either way, i'm all for rock climbers getting paid. In other 'core' sports (e.g. skateboarding), it's less taboo to take a cheque from over-caffeinated sugary drink company.

I think the major issue around all of this is what I have flagged earlier in that the whole 8C+/9A problems are all getting a bit messy and whether any incentives (and other factors which I flagged such as honeypot grading, where you are encouraging people to even try a problem) that help contribute to this.

But in a wider holistic matter, you are correct - it's all good forum baiting fun.

[Bonjoy]

I think it's to be expected that sponsors will look for objective criteria for the support they offer. At least these metrics are rewarding hard climbing, as opposed to solely relying on social media data, which is probably the main other measurable and host to its own set of perverse incentives.
As Liam's post suggests, arguably the top end benefits from pressures balancing against the tendency for competitive downgrading/undergrading. So perhaps this doesn't result in inflation at the top after all, or the inflation is the sort needed for grades to increase in line with ability.

[User deactivated.]

Either way, i'm all for rock climbers getting paid. In other 'core' sports (e.g. skateboarding), it's less taboo to take a cheque from over-caffeinated sugary drink company.

It's not really tabboo in climbing, is it? It seems like basically all pro-climbers are either working with Red Bu|l or Tenzing these days, though I guess Red Bu|l's pockets stretch a little deeper

I distinctly remember controversy surrounding Ashima's Coca-Cola deal. A quick search returned this article:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/opinions/coca-cola_and_climbing_-_a_bittersweet_collaboration-9358

It's not the most scathing article ever, but it wouldn't even be a consideration in other sports. Also, this statement is laughable: "Of course, there is also the fact that the product itself is unhealthy and filled with sugar and chemicals."

[mattbirddog]

Either way, i'm all for rock climbers getting paid. In other 'core' sports (e.g. skateboarding), it's less taboo to take a cheque from over-caffeinated sugary drink company.

It's not really tabboo in climbing, is it? It seems like basically all pro-climbers are either working with Red Bu|l or Tenzing these days, though I guess Red Bu|l's pockets stretch a little deeper

I distinctly remember controversy surrounding Ashima's Coca-Cola deal. A quick search returned this article:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/opinions/coca-cola_and_climbing_-_a_bittersweet_collaboration-9358

It's not the most scathing article ever, but it wouldn't even be a consideration in other sports. Also, this statement is laughable: "Of course, there is also the fact that the product itself is unhealthy and filled with sugar and chemicals."

Yeah, Ashima took a bit of a hit by being the first climber to get sponsored by Coke and took a bit of a hit for it.

Seems to have been normalised now and also climbing audiences are so much wider than now that despite a loud minority, people are more accepting of these kinds of sponsors.

Whether you think it is right or not is down to personal tastes and the behaviour of the brands themselves. Having worked with Red Bull for years now, they truly are a class leader in protecting and supporting athletes so I will always support their presence in climbing.