[teestub]

Ah, I get seankenny's point now... though like I said, I don't notice a meaningful difference in shops between the countries in question.

If you choose to go to shit shops that’s your choice, the supermarket I went to in Briancon had 3 cheese aisles and two sausage aisles, absolutely outstanding! Think I saw a cuttlefish too. 

[abarro81]

But then you have to compare to Waitrose... (Caveat, I'm not familiar with how many cheese isles Waitrose has, though I guess less than 3 still!)

[stone]

This is jumpers for goalposts stuff surely, its hardly surprising that a supermarket in southern spain had globe artichokes given they are local to there! Ditto cuttle fish, I'm shocked that somewhere near the Med had a good selection of seafood.

Much of the seafood they eat in Spain is caught in the UK. I used to climb with someone in Portland who used to work crab fishing. He said all the crabs they caught were put on lorries and sent to Spain. Same with fancy white fish from Scotland.

Globe artichokes grow well in the UK. I used to grow them when I had an allotment.

[andy popp]

in the style of those 'ooo remembers proper bin men' local facebook groups!

Great article on the rise of "binmenism" (probably what SM had in mind when he posted):

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/nov/15/who-remembers-proper-binmen-facebook-nostalgia-memes-help-explain-britain-today

[stone]

Seans point about cooking from scratch being a form of patriarchal oppression may be true in some circumstances but it needn't be.

Like I said, I do our household'd cooking and food shopping (I'm male with a female partner). Same with my brother who does the cooking for his wife and kids. We both have jobs.

I also did a lot of cooking as a child. So child care can consist of having kids cook for the adults.

[andy popp]

So child care can consist of having kids cook for the adults.

That's not my definition of childcare. A child cooking roughly doubles parental workload.

[ali k]

I've always used 'jumpers for goalposts' as shorthand for excessive nostalgia; ie, when people are looking back to a simpler time, when kids played football in the streets, nobody locked their doors,
In this context I thought Stone's post could be paraphrased as 'back in the day shops sold proper food' and I was gently ribbing this.

Ah cool yeh that’s the way I use it. Good to know I don’t have to go back and correct a few decades of my (terrible) jokes!
For some reason I read it as used like ‘comparing apples with oranges’ 

[teestub]

So child care can consist of having kids cook for the adults.

That's not my definition of childcare. A child cooking roughly doubles parental workload.

💯💯💯

[Bradders]

So child care can consist of having kids cook for the adults.

That's not my definition of childcare. A child cooking roughly doubles parental workload.

Absolutely. Cleaning effort alone must at least triple.

[mrjonathanr]

I'm not familiar with how many cheese isles Waitrose has, though I guess less than 3 still!)

A whole archipelago. Apparently.

[rodma]

I'm not familiar with how many cheese isles Waitrose has, though I guess less than 3 still!)

A whole archipelago. Apparently.

 

Amazing. That's one of the best typos ever.

[abarro81]

 

[jwi]

So child care can consist of having kids cook for the adults.

That's not my definition of childcare. A child cooking roughly doubles parental workload.

💯💯💯

When I was thirteen I started to cook for my younger sisters and my father. My father did the washing-up. My mom has told me that was one of the reasons she could travel to uni in another city during the weeks to take classes to change career. I'm sure she put in quite some time shopping and planning the meal though. I got a list of dishes and recipes for every week.

[teestub]

When I was thirteen I started to cook for my younger sisters and my father. My father did the washing-up. My mom has told me that was one of the reasons she could travel to uni in another city during the weeks to take classes to change career. I'm sure she put in quite some time shopping and planning the meal though. I got a list of dishes and recipes for every week.

Can’t have been that much work laying out some smoked fish and flatbread 😄

[stone]

So child care can consist of having kids cook for the adults.

That's not my definition of childcare. A child cooking roughly doubles parental workload.

I used to cook unsupervised from age 10 onwards. I'd call everyone when the food was ready and they'd eat it. And I'd clean up. How is that "doubling parental workload"?

Anyway, my main point is that what is messed up is viewing cooking as being "workload". Cooking with kids or other family members can be fun, just like playing football with them or whatever.

Obviously, with little kids, safety is important. I remember my brother getting very angry with my mum when he saw my three year old nephew stood on a chair to reach the worktop, with a chef's knife chopping carrots. My mum said my brother was being ridiculous because he and me had been doing the same at that age. I agreed with my brother.

[Will Hunt]

So child care can consist of having kids cook for the adults.

That's not my definition of childcare. A child cooking roughly doubles parental workload.

I used to cook unsupervised from age 10 onwards. I'd call everyone when the food was ready and they'd eat it. How is that "doubling parental workload"?

Anyway, my main point is that what is messed up is viewing cooking as being "workload". Cooking with kids or other family members can be fun, just like playing football with them or whatever.

Obviously, with little kids, safety is important. I remember my brother getting very angry with my mum when he saw my three year old nephew stood on a chair to reach the worktop, with a chef's knife chopping carrots. My mum said my brother was being ridiculous because he and me had been doing the same at that age. I agreed with my brother.

It depends on the individual child and on the child's age. A 10 or 13 year old will be capable of more and require less hands-on childcare. A 6 year old will be different, a toddler or baby different again. We bake with our 4 and 6 year olds and I will get them to help me cook if I have time, but it is more work and I certainly couldn't let them crack on alone.

Also, in this context I believe work is defined as that which you could pay someone to do for you. It sounds like you love cooking, that's great, many people do not (personally I like "occasion" cooking where you're doing something new or special. I don't like day-to-day cooking).

[ali k]

Anyway, my main point is that what is messed up is viewing cooking as being "workload". Cooking with kids or other family members can be fun, just like playing football with them or whatever.

I think most other people’s point is that if both parents are working then time is limited and for kids of a certain age it would come down to a choice between playing football etc with them or cooking with them. And given you need to eat several times a day just to exist then it’s easy to see why shopping and cooking becomes seen as “workload” alongside the laundry and cleaning. Clearly it’s easier for cooking to be fun if you do it occasionally and when time is unlimited.

[jwi]

[...]

Can’t have been that much work laying out some smoked fish and flatbread 😄

Hah. Fair enough.

[Fultonius]

I've got a 10 page essay on all these points brewing in my head, but just can't seem to get the time to do it justice.

Let's say I'd kick off with saying that getting women into the workplace has been a massive failure......





....because we forgot / didn't consider that we'd need to actually totally change our relationship with work, parenting, cooking, family living etc. *

It would then drift through the idiocy of our inflationary housing market that benefits no one....

Maybe touching on 4 day weeks...

Then the fact  in many of my friends' relationships then man does the cooking...

But I'm to busy cooking, charity board meetings, training, saving the planet form climate change to do it justice.

I had written this, and wanted to review/ edit / expand but never got there:

We need the split of the split of the split at this point....

If we talking about healthy eating, self cooked meals from scratch I would argue the majority above a certain level of income / living standards (and I know it's brutal below this) have the equipment to make the meals, and even taking gas/leccy into account I just can't bring myself to believe that it's not at least roughly cost neutral to make it yourself over buying ready meals.

So if we're trying to fix the the issue below that level, it's a chronic issue and a political choice to be where we're at. The poverty issue needs fixed which would go hand in hand with better food, but I agree, just saying "cook it yourself" when life is depressingly challenging probably is not going to do much.

However, for the vast bulk of society not cooking food is a choice. Yes, those hours need to come from somewhere, and with stressful jobs, kids etc.etc. it's not always easy but you can always shove netflix on, or listen to a podcast...hell...listen to one in another language - win win! It can be your 45 minutes of "mindfullness" for free...

I'm in the fortunate position that I only work 4 days a week - but I didn't get there by chance, I pushed my last employer to do it (despite their reservations) and it went well for them!  I forgo fancier cars, and expensive meals out and other luxuries (well, this year's a but different as I picked up a nice contract) but it's a CHOICE to have massive TV, BMW, bigger house etc. etc. and you CHOSE to work a higher pressure job to fund those things - most people should work less and make more time for things like cooking - it's all very good for the soul and body.

What I find shit is that supermarket have destroyed the food system and wrapped it all in plastic, so you really have to go out your way in a lot of places to find good quality vegetables that actually taste of things and have good nutrient levels.

Like Mischa I bake a sourdough a week (although slacking a bit recently as I ran out of flour and kept forgetting to buy more). Costs about £1/loaf for around 600gr and is 100% organic, and therefore much more nutritious. We also buy one a week with our veg box as a luxury. On an average week we spend £22 on our veg box, box of organic eggs and sourdough. We top that up with around £30 of shopping. We make the choice, even though it's bloody expensive, to have organic yoghurt as we eat it every day and the environment is important to us. So there you go, if we don't eat out, or make any special meals we spend around £25-30 each per week (oh, forgot about the bi-monthly wholefoods order - that's another £150, so another £10/wk. £30-£35/week for mostly organic and 100% self cooked meals. We'll treat ourselves every couple of weeks to a takeaway pizza or falafel or something...

Now....having said all that, and the fact it's definitely a choice...I know how incredibly DIFFICULT it is to get started because of what's actually available, and what the job market is like, and what culture is like. It's a big shift, but it's totally doable.

No doubt my middle class, no kids, privilege will oozing out of this....

That said, to counter a previous point about driving to various shops - in Glasgow at least, our most deprived areas have a massive array of well stocked, cheap and diverse grocery shops within a 15 minute cycle. It's actually much harder in the more estate-ey or suburban places, where the car is king.
 
Make of all that what you will.....


* before any explodes in flames, I'm not for one minute suggesting we shouldn't have encouraged, removed barriers/ promoted women not having kids / getting back to work after....just that the way we have gone about it is totally fucked. There's not enough slack in the system to do it all properly, because we've built a system that means everyone needs 2 x 5 day a week jobs to live in an area where the schools are good (oh yeah, that was page 6)......


AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHH

And 9 more pages......

[webbo]

I do most of the cooking in our house as I’m retired and my other is still working. I have all the time in the world to do the shopping and plan meals and cook but I don’t enjoy doing it.
It’s on a par with cleaning and ironing in my eyes.

[thunderbeest]

I still can't believe most households actually need 2 x 5 days of income (saying that in a household with 2 toddlers and my wife being a full time student on maternal leave)

[Falling Down]

Fultonius “ There's not enough slack in the system to do it all properly, because we've built a system that means everyone needs 2 x 5 day a week jobs to live”. That’s pretty much the thrust of the Vittles article I linked further up and it brings in schools and hospitals too.

[teestub]

That’s pretty much the thrust of the Vittles article I linked further up and it brings in schools and hospitals too.

Thanks for the nudge, I didn’t click through when you first posted

This creates a sense of urgency that keeps us focused on food as the issue, rather than the social, political, and structural forces that shape our lives and our experiences of well-being. Instead of rallying against systematic underfunding and the backdoor privatisation of healthcare, we’re occupied with finding minimally processed alternatives to Dairy Milk.

I still can't believe most households actually need 2 x 5 days of income (saying that in a household with 2 toddlers and my wife being a full time student on maternal leave)

Are you in the UK or elsewhere? Obviously this depends largely on the single salary too right!

And need covers a lot of ground, like I could move to a £60k terrace in Lancashire somewhere and we could probably do with one salary then, do we need to live in a nice village?

[Will Hunt]

processed alternatives to Dairy Milk.

Futile. There is no adequate alternative to the ambrosia that is Dairy Milk. The closest is almond white chocolate Choceur from Aldi (which ought to be a listed Class A substance).

[seankenny]

I thought the Vittles article was really great. I read various suggestions for getting people to cook, started thinking “which policies would actually work for this” and went down a similar rabbit hole to Fultonious.

On the question of 2x5day incomes, I find often this discourse misses out that some people just want to do hard things at work. Running a hospital, producing the news, making partner at a law firm, these things aren’t just about the money but also achievement and influence. (Okay maybe the last one is about the money…  )

To quote the article I linked to, the whole shape of working life, at the level of the career as much as the week, is out of whack for women who want kids, or rather it forces decisions on women that men are exempt from:

“Some careers are “greedy,” to use economist Claudia Goldin’s term. Greedy jobs are distinct from jobs that require child care during predictable work hours. They demand long hours, on-call work schedules, or frequent travel. They do not easily accommodate the demands of family life, which has its own greedy demands. Greedy jobs are often the highest paid or most prestigious in a particular field, industry, or society. For couples raising children, it’s generally the case that only one partner can successfully pursue a greedy job. The other will either take time out of work altogether when children are young or pursue a less greedy career. If both partners wish to pursue greedy jobs, they will likely not have children. If a woman is pursuing a greedy job and her husband a regular one, kids are also less likely.”