[Tom de Gay]

Surely not. Were Bleausards really climbing sit-starts on obscure boulders in obscure areas in the late 70s?

The plus grades were a later addition to the scale (not sure when, early 80s?), hence there being not very many 6C+, 6B+ etc. So I guess the first 7B+ would probably have been a 7B or C originally.

Edit: also, I don't think the first ascensionist was active until the late 80s

[Will Hunt]

Surely not. Were Bleausards really climbing sit-starts on obscure boulders in obscure areas in the late 70s?

Of only tangential relevance, but people obsessing over weird bits of rock is older than you might think.
Gremlin's Wall, E4 6b, Ilkley Rocky Valley, unstarred. Climb Flake Climb but boldly venture up the wall (about 3m tall) right of the final flake. FA Roy Heilds 1953.

A very significant lead by a local expert who spent the summer bivouacking in The Valley. Probably the hardest on gritstone anywhere at the time, it was dismissed by many who thought it impossible for the day and was omitted in the 1961 guidebook until its rediscovery by Al Manson in 1977.

Maybe Heilds was the Gaskins of his day? I've gone up to lead it and been pretty sure I'd do it but didn't think the risk of hitting my ankles on the ledge you climb above was worth the 0-star reward. Did it with a rope above after and it's very obvious what you have to do and not massively hard, so could be top end 6a/low end 6b. Regardless, very impressive for the early 1950s! It's really uninspiring but obviously Heilds could see that it would go and couldn't get the idea out of his head.

[mrjonathanr]

Bit of an open offer based on some conversations elsewhere, but if anyone has any digital material you think is of interest (pics of a cool FA, vids of interesting repeats, guidebook draft material etc.) I'd be happy to sort out some long term storage via climbing-history.org.

If you'd be happy making it public that'd obviously be cool, but if you just want somewhere safe for it and want to keep it private I'd be happy to help with that too.

Just drop me a DM.

Sent you a link

[webbo]

Surely not. Were Bleausards really climbing sit-starts on obscure boulders in obscure areas in the late 70s?

Of only tangential relevance, but people obsessing over weird bits of rock is older than you might think.
Gremlin's Wall, E4 6b, Ilkley Rocky Valley, unstarred. Climb Flake Climb but boldly venture up the wall (about 3m tall) right of the final flake. FA Roy Heilds 1953.

A very significant lead by a local expert who spent the summer bivouacking in The Valley. Probably the hardest on gritstone anywhere at the time, it was dismissed by many who thought it impossible for the day and was omitted in the 1961 guidebook until its rediscovery by Al Manson in 1977.

Maybe Heilds was the Gaskins of his day? I've gone up to lead it and been pretty sure I'd do it but didn't think the risk of hitting my ankles on the ledge you climb above was worth the 0-star reward. Did it with a rope above after and it's very obvious what you have to do and not massively hard, so could be top end 6a/low end 6b. Regardless, very impressive for the early 1950s! It's really uninspiring but obviously Heilds could see that it would go and couldn't get the idea out of his head.

I think this is pure bollocks given the guy was using aid on VS’s I spent time belaying Al Manson when he was trying this and it took him numerous sessions to do it. He was absolutely staggered when he heard the retro claim. If some one like Austin, Jimmy Fullalove or Eric Lilley had claimed it maybe but Ron Hields was a VS punter.

[AndyR]

I think this is pure bollocks given the guy was using aid on VS’s I spent time belaying Al Manson when he was trying this and it took him numerous sessions to do it. He was absolutely staggered when he heard the retro claim. If some one like Austin, Jimmy Fullalove or Eric Lilley had claimed it maybe but Ron Hields was a VS punter.

This is the reason I still check UKb - best post in a decade!

[remus]

Bit of a niche one, but don't suppose anyone has a copy of Pat Aments 2009 film 'The Disciples of Gill'?

Yes, I do! Delayed reply because I had to locate it and retrieve it -- didn't want to make any promises until I knew I could actually lay hands on it. Do you want to borrow/copy it?

Ah that's amazing, thanks so much for digging it out! Yeah I'd love to borrow it if that's ok? I'll drop you a DM.

[SA Chris]

Anyone know if Steve Dunning's dyno Super Furry Animal at Slipstones has had a repeat?

Surprised at this if no-one?

[remus]

I was digging through some SMC journals (which are all freely available via the SMC website, what a resource!) and found a couple of great write ups about a couple of Julian Lines' harder things, in particular Icon of Lust (https://simrich.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/SMCJ/Number%20197%20-%20Vol%2039%20-%202006%20Reduced.pdf) and Margathea (https://simrich.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/SMCJ/Number%20208%20%E2%80%93%20Vol%2045%20-%202017%20website.pdf). Gripping bits of writing.

[SA Chris]

Read Tears of the Dawn if you haven't, great book.

He's done so much hard scary stuff, Remontado E6 6a onsight, solo (churn that, E Graders!) in Coire Sputan Dearg sounds especially horrifying from the description, and a long long way from any rescuers. And no mobile coverage in that part of Cairngorms back when it was done..

[remus]

Rainy Saturday morning got you down? I've added a little 'Shuffle' button to climbing-history.org that'll show you a random page to raise your spirits, whether that's a route you didnt know about or an article from the SMC journal.

[Tony]

I've added a little 'Shuffle' button to climbing-history.org that'll show you a random page to raise your spirits, whether that's a route you didnt know about or an article from the SMC journal.

Nice one Remus, link: https://climbing-history.org/shuffle

I was digging through some SMC journals (which are all freely available via the SMC website, what a resource!)…

Bit different but I imagine you’ve also seen the SMC new routes (and new comments on old routes) database at:
https://www.smc.org.uk/climbs/newroutes

[remus]

Thanks for the link Tony, yeah have seen it previously but good to have another browse.

[remus]

Interested in people's opinions on first ascent details as it seems like there's some convention involved.

I'd read FA details like "FA. A.Sharp, P.Lewis 15/Aug/1986" (from Beat Surrender at Mother Careys area) as meaning A. Sharp (Andy?) led it, with a belay from P.Lewis (Paul?). Potentially there was some joint cleaning effort, and potentially P.Lewis may have also led or seconded it, but definitely not guaranteed.

If it was a multipitch I'd assume that would normally mean anyone mentioned in the FA details did some leading, but the exact 'contribution' to the FA would depend a bit on the route i.e. if you lead the VS intro pitches then hand over to your mate to lead the E8 pitch then it'd be fair to say your mate had done the bulk of it.

[Tony]

I think there is rather a lack of convention/consistency.

I wouldn’t securely base “who did what” on the ordering of names for multi-pitch routes.

For single pitches then the first name very probably led it but doesn’t always mean the second name didn’t lead it too. Conversely, sometimes the second named was just the belayer and didn’t ever second the pitch.

We could do with some disambiguation of FAs in the historical record. For some names there’s more than one possibility, even accounting for area and period. A nice use case for a graph database?

[remus]

Yeah it is frustratingly vague in many cases, and often very difficult (or impossible) to get clarity.

We could do with some disambiguation of FAs in the historical record. For some names there’s more than one possibility, even accounting for area and period. A nice use case for a graph database?

I think the SMC are putting some effort in here. Im sure I read something in their recent new routes DB that they're trying to use full names where possible so you don't get the B. Smith (Bob? Brian? Ben?) problem, but it's not infallible e.g. Joe Brown's ascent of Cemetery Waits E7 in 1995. climbing-history.org helps with some of this, but then it's never meant to be a complete record of FAs so it won't help for a lot of routes.

[andy popp]

Interested in people's opinions on first ascent details as it seems like there's some convention involved.

I'd read FA details like "FA. A.Sharp, P.Lewis 15/Aug/1986" (from Beat Surrender at Mother Careys area) as meaning A. Sharp (Andy?) led it, with a belay from P.Lewis (Paul?). Potentially there was some joint cleaning effort, and potentially P.Lewis may have also led or seconded it, but definitely not guaranteed.

If it was a multipitch I'd assume that would normally mean anyone mentioned in the FA details did some leading, but the exact 'contribution' to the FA would depend a bit on the route i.e. if you lead the VS intro pitches then hand over to your mate to lead the E8 pitch then it'd be fair to say your mate had done the bulk of it.

In the first example, I would certainly have always assumed Lewis had seconded the route - that was the convention in the past anyway. You wouldn't have typically expected to be listed on a first ascent just for belaying duties (always exceptions of course, Nick Dixon used to sometimes list anyone vaguely involved: non-climbing wives, children, dogs, people not at the crag on the day, random passersby etc.). As I said, those were the conventions in the past.

On the other hand I would definitely never have assumed someone listed on a multipitch FA had done some some/any of the leading. Even if you only second you're still very much part of the first ascent team. A decent first ascent listing should detail who led what (on a multipitch) though.

[Tony]

that was the convention in the past anyway. You wouldn't have typically expected to be listed on a first ascent just for belaying duties (always exceptions of course, … . As I said, those were the conventions in the past.

I do agree this was the most common stance. Though I’m not sure “convention” is justified. I’m unconvinced how consistent this understanding was across time and geography.

A decent first ascent listing should detail who led what (on a multipitch) though.

Really? I have seldom seen such a break down in a first ascent listing. Occasionally in a journal article detailing the ascent I have seen such comprehensive details but that’s it. Perhaps for a Peak 2 pitch route it could be fair to interpret the order of names but I doubt even that is secure.

[Johnny Brown]

Joe Brown's ascent of Cemetery Waits E7 in 1995

What’s the issue with this?

[SamT]

I think Remus is saying that whilst there can be confusion around monikers like B. Smith.. putting the full name doesn't necessarily solve the problem entirely (in that some confusion could arise around Joe brown climbing E7 in 1995.. "What the Joe brown.. that must be a typo".)

[remus]

Joe Brown's ascent of Cemetery Waits E7 in 1995

What’s the issue with this?

As Sam said, just the potential for confusion when two people have the same name. Usually possible to work out what's what with a little local knowledge, but ideally these details would be unambiguous.

[SA Chris]

I'd read FA details like "FA. A.Sharp, P.Lewis 15/Aug/1986" (from Beat Surrender at Mother Careys area) as meaning A. Sharp (Andy?) led it, with a belay from P.Lewis (Paul?). Potentially there was some joint cleaning effort, and potentially P.Lewis may have also led or seconded it, but definitely not guaranteed.

"Both led" in brackets used to get used if this was the case, but don't see it much anymore.

[remus]

Sid Perou sadly passed away yesterday, but in doing a little research I stumbled on his youtube channel which has some gems on it https://www.youtube.com/@Cavingcameraman/videos

[remus]

Grimer's latest pod with Gresham is a good listen. Some interesting/harrowing stuff about his ascent of Indian Face.

Part 1: https://niallgrimes.libsyn.com/jcpc-156-neil-gresham-part-1
Part 2, including the Indian Face stuff: https://niallgrimes.libsyn.com/jcpc-157-neil-gresham-part-2

[remus]

Noticed that Ian Carr has a logbook on UKC which makes for some fun reading. As well as some notable ascents himself he also partnered Dougie Hall on a lot of hard trad in the 80s. For example there's a nice little write up of a very impressive onsight burn on Strawberries at tremadog:

Held Dougie’s ropes on this. The famous creaky green single 9mm. On the flash he went for it from gear about 1/2 way up. Only to slip off the final move, ending up at or below me.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.php?id=12859&sort=g&country=&crag=&gradetype=2&partner=&year=&season=&newfilter=1&nresults=100&pg=1

[remus]

Did Malc repeat Progress at Kilnsey? Gav Ellis has got some great pics of him on it and I feel like I heard about him doing it, but was wandering if anyone could remember for sure?

And bonus question: what's the deal with the hold loss on it? The UKC description says "it lost holds and got a bit harder than it's original 8c", but would be interested to know roughly what changed and when.