[Kingy]

Hi Remus
Yes, Malc did Progress in the summer of 1995, the mags confirm this (I don't have any in my collection but I'm sure High or OTE will have it reported).

Regarding holds changing, there are 2 key holds that have altered a bit since the FA in 95. Firstly the crux sidepull/ pod between the second and third bolt for your left hand has got smaller due to it crumbling. Apparently it used to be significantly bigger. Secondly the slopey pod for your right hand used to have more of a lip on it in the 90's and this broke off making this bit harder. Its the redpoint crux now - this broke agin majorly last summer but was repaired back to its former state as the piece that broke was retained and put back exactly how it used to be.

Thirdly, there were some holds between the 6th and 7th bolt that broke about 8 or 9 years ago but a repair was done to a key crimp so this section is about the same as what it used to be (the old holds can be seen in the Chris Savage video or the Malc pics).

I understand that this year the jug by the kneebar rest higher up has crumbled plus some other sika has decayed (not sure where) but I don't have any knowledge of this as haven't been up there to look

[haydn jones]

Yeah I broke the jug off by the high knee bar. Also quite a large chunk of the knee bar shattered off, enough that I really struggle to make the knee work now. I don't think it changes the grade. It just means it's a slightly worse shake out

[remus]

Top knowledge Ted, I was hoping you might see the post as I'd have put money on you knowing all the answers! Thanks for the update on the knee bar too Haydn 

[Kingy]

Nic Sellers has done Progress. He was working it with Tony Mitchell in 95 prior to the FA but both got smoked by Jerry. Nic took 16 days. Jerry took 4 days (would have been 2 if he hadn't fallen off the top roof due to not working it enough). Details of Jerry's ascent are in High Magazine's excellent Rock Notes report from 1995 plus Keith's pics of Jerry. I understand Tony didn't do it sadly as he was shut down by a massive reach in the top roof and got there twice from the ground. I believe Steve McClure has done it but not sure where that would be referenced, I'm sure he would confirm.

Regarding the grade, I'm not totally convinced it went up from 8c to 8c+ just due to the crux hold by the 3rd and the pod by the 6th crumbling. Yes these holds have deteriorated but I don't think they were that much better in 1995 to automatically make the route 8c. Take a look at the pod sidepull hold Malc is holding with his right hand in the first pic on Climbing History, it looks pretty much the same as now.

I think the downgrade to 8c from Jerry's initial 8c+ was a lot to do with the culture of downgrading at that time. For example, Evolution getting downgraded to 8c by Nic from Jerry's 8c+ and that is now regarded as 8c+. Also, 42 being downgraded to 8b due to Nic's near flash. Probably a similar thing happened with Progress. With the passage of time, we can now look at these ascents as representing a peak of UK sport climbing in the mid 90's - compared to some routes graded 8c in Europe today, there is a good chance both were 8c+!

[haydn jones]

June 2006 Steve did it pretty sure

[bendavison]

Regarding the grade, I'm not totally convinced it went up from 8c to 8c+ just due to the crux hold by the 3rd and the pod by the 6th crumbling. Yes these holds have deteriorated but I don't think they were that much better in 1995 to automatically make the route 8c.

I think the downgrade to 8c from Jerry's initial 8c+ was a lot to do with the culture of downgrading at that time. For example, Evolution getting downgraded to 8c by Nic from Jerry's 8c+ and that is now regarded as 8c+. Also, 42 being downgraded to 8b due to Nic's near flash. Probably a similar thing happened with Progress.

Could the potential upgrade of Progress and downgrade of Evolution just be from Nic's experience on them and personal feeling of the grades? He did Evolution incredibly quickly, and seemed to find Progress harder, so it seems reasonable that he might have thought the grades were the wrong way round. If that's the case, I don't know the circumstances by which his feelings re the grades became wrote.

[Kingy]

Regarding the grade, I'm not totally convinced it went up from 8c to 8c+ just due to the crux hold by the 3rd and the pod by the 6th crumbling. Yes these holds have deteriorated but I don't think they were that much better in 1995 to automatically make the route 8c.

I think the downgrade to 8c from Jerry's initial 8c+ was a lot to do with the culture of downgrading at that time. For example, Evolution getting downgraded to 8c by Nic from Jerry's 8c+ and that is now regarded as 8c+. Also, 42 being downgraded to 8b due to Nic's near flash. Probably a similar thing happened with Progress.

Could the potential upgrade of Progress and downgrade of Evolution just be from Nic's experience on them and personal feeling of the grades? He did Evolution incredibly quickly, and seemed to find Progress harder, so it seems reasonable that he might have thought the grades were the wrong way round. If that's the case, I don't know the circumstances by which his feelings re the grades became wrote.

Really interesting discussion. Yes thats a good point, these things can be very subjective. I know that Nic mentioned to me at Kilnsey that he found Progress a lot harder than Evolution. He did find a useful dropknee on Evolution which he attributed to helping him being able to send the route and led to him being described as 'bendy' in OTE. I've never managed to work out where this famous drop knee is....  The joys of routes before videos! I think Jerry must have been going through a purple patch at that time...

[remus]

Ted, currently I've got progress recorded as pre-break and post-break on climbing-history, do you think it's a useful distinction to make? Usually I do it when there's a substantial difference but it sounds like progress probably didn't change that much and the grade difference was more to do with some harsh downgrading.

Also how did it go down to 8c in the first place? It sounds like Jerry suggested 8c+ and Nic thought it hard/8c+ compared to Evolution. Was it Malc who suggested a downgrade? Can't imagine there were many other people lining up to repeat it at the time.

[Kingy]

Its a tricky point - I think hold deterioration rather than hold breakage is the best way of referring to it. The two key holds by the 3rd and 6th bolts I've mentioned (that have not been repaired to how they were in the 90's) are definitely a little worse but its now not possible to determine by how much they are worse. Therefore I don't think we can simply say that it was 8c then and its 8c+ now, I don't think its possible to neatly categorise it like that.

One of the other factors you mention was the fact that Nic did Jerry's routes and things were read into the grades. If you can procure copies of OTE and High from summer 1995 with the relevant articles rounding up limestone developments they mention this usefully. I think Jerry's interview in 'Men Grading Badly' in OTE from 1995 (the one with Ben Moon commenting on grades) has some mention of it plus some pics of Jerry in black and white on Progress.

Yes that's right, IIRC Jerry proposed 8c+ for Evo, Nic did it quickly and downgraded it. Jerry did Progress and graded it 8c+ but after Evo went down to 8c he had doubts, especially as it only took him 4 days to do it. I think in his interview in OTE (and reflecting on Evo now being considered 8c) he says something along the lines of ....the bummer was I thought I was climbing better than I actually was so maybe I was wrong about the grade of Progress....'' In light of how long it took Nic to do Progress relative to Jerry and the fact that maybe Evo suited Nic perfectly, we can now see that perhaps Jerry was right all along in grading Progress 8c+ (even in spite of the hold deterioriation - perhaps it has gone from easy 8c+ in 1995 to now harder 8c+?). Doubtless Malc will have had an opinion on Progress when he repeated it shorty afterwards and of course he did Evo earlier that summer as well. Without asking Malc, we won't know his opinion!

Without researching the above articles, I don't think we can really make any pronouncements - all of the above factors are at play in combination. I hope this helps! I will try and dig out some of these articles and send them to you.

[andy popp]

Ted, a few posts before you mentioned a culture of downgrading. As an extremely peripheral participant on Peak lime in the 90s I remember that culture well - it was pretty much expected that everything would be downgraded.

[Kingy]

Ted, a few posts before you mentioned a culture of downgrading. As an extremely peripheral participant on Peak lime in the 90s I remember that culture well - it was pretty much expected that everything would be downgraded.

haha, almost a badge of honour to sandbag something so it couldn't possibly be downgraded! 

[Kingy]

Here are the 2 articles (High, September 1995 and OTE Issue 53). Some tantalising comparisions with Liquid Ambar in the High article... Enjoy!

www.flickr.com/photos/191265102@N05/53922412834/in/dateposted-public/
www.flickr.com/photos/191265102@N05/53921165927/in/dateposted-public/
www.flickr.com/photos/191265102@N05/53921165967/in/dateposted-public/

[jakaitch]

That first shot of Jerry on Progress is class!

[SamT]

lasers/stonemonkey clothing/dmm mambas  - so of their time.

[grimer]

WRT Nic's downgrading of Evolution, it may or may not have something to do with the fact, if i remeber correctly, that Nic was really fucked off that Jerry had 'nicked' Progress.

Progress was named after a club night. As was Make It Funky.

[SamT]

@Remus - There should be a massive 'Route name history' database..  that gives an explanation of the routename history.. Its such a massive and colourful component of climbing history.  We were pontificating over the "Bream in Black" name at cheedale embankment the other day.. bit of digging and of course its a  Gary Gibson Stranglers reference - there were nicknamed the 'Men in Black'

[Neil F]

...Details of Jerry's ascent are in High Magazine's excellent Rock Notes report from 1995...

  

[spidermonkey09]

@Remus - There should be a massive 'Route name history' database..  that gives an explanation of the routename history.. Its such a massive and colourful component of climbing history.  We were pontificating over the "Bream in Black" name at cheedale embankment the other day.. bit of digging and of course its a  Gary Gibson Stranglers reference - there were nicknamed the 'Men in Black'

I think working it out for yourself or being told it by someone in the know is equally fun though. eg 'They Brush Me' at Kilnsey is an anagram of 'Thumb-Heresy'- the route starts up the Thumb and finishes up the old trad route Heresy (now Complete Control). Can't even remember where i learned that now!

[Neil F]

...Can't even remember where i learned that now!

ahem

Details of 'that anagram' are in High Magazine's excellent Rock Notes report from '1992'

 

[Kingy]

Excellent stuff! I miss the days when news was reported by the mags not by the athletes themselves on their instas... 

[remus]

Thanks for digging out those articles Ted, and Neil for writing it in the first place!

Loving the route name explanations too. I've added these to climbing-history.org, would be keen for more if anyone has more.

I'm completely rubbish at working them out myself. Strapadictomy took me years, even when I knew it was meant to be funny 

p.s. I've consolidated progress into a single page on climbing-history. Doesn't seem clear that a pre/post hold deterioration distinction is worth making here, and it seems like it was probably around 8c+ at the time of the FA anyway.

[jakaitch]

Excellent stuff! I miss the days when news was reported by the mags not by the athletes themselves on their instas... 

You never know, maybe Aidan et al are hoarding a bunch of news for the next issue of Spotter (although Id settle for another baking recipe instead)

[SA Chris]

Strapadictomy took me years, even when I knew it was meant to be funny 

You know Strapiombo, Strapiombante and Strappotente are Overhang, Overhanging and Overwhelming in Italian? 

[jakaitch]

Whats Strapathyroid in Italian?

[SA Chris]

non lo so