[Tom de Gay]

I'm starting to think that even the photo of Grimer and Jerry in the Stoney woodshed might not have been the daring reportage I took it to be

[SamT]

 

[SA Chris]

Am I just naive and stuck in my ways or do others find climbing media these days in all its forms lacking in any depth or soul….?? It all (not all but most) just feels so much more superficial than it was…

It's part of the age we live in. It's so easy to take average to good photos these days with the phone everyone has in their pocket. With that ease comes a huge tide of "content" most of which we look at on a 3" x 6" screen for a couple of seconds before scrolling on, unless we actually make an effort to save it somewhere for later viewing before it is lost in a tide of electronic media.

This is why (IMO) books like Peak Rock, Simon Carter's  and Guy Robertson's efforts (for example) should be lauded and supported, as they are becoming an increasingly rare art form; actual hard copies of climbing photographs. Big up to VP as one of the mainstays of quality printed media in the UK.

[Will Hunt]

Staged vs unstaged. Some photos are documentary and some are more functional. I wanted to put a lady on the cover of Northern Rock (are male guidebook covers in the minority yet? I feel like they might be!) but had a limited number of female participants who were up for doing The Sole and could be available at short notice when the weather was right. It ended up being Rachael who, at the time, was not up to leading it clean. To avoid the faff I went up and put the gear in above the boulder problem start, then hauled her into position, then we spent a while getting the shot with the right light etc. She then led the top bit. So, completely staged, but that's what we had to do to get the photo. Frankly if I'd turned up with someone of the calibre of, say, Naomi Buys, she'd have been up it like a rat up a drainpipe and the photographer would have missed the shot.

In fact, when Ibbo posed for the cover photo of YG Vol1 he crabbed up and down the crux of Wall of Horrors ad infinitum while Mike Hutton (who was on a rope being hauled clear of the crag by Robin, Adi etc) got the shots.

Needs must.

[remus]

Am I just naive and stuck in my ways or do others find climbing media these days in all its forms lacking in any depth or soul….?? It all (not all but most) just feels so much more superficial than it was…

Pretty sure every generation is obliged to say this of the following generation. I think it's just the nature of things that the media you grow up with has a deep, lasting impact on you in a way that things you're exposed to later in life often don't. I think the current crop of young'uns are putting out plenty of high quality pictures and videos (wedge, Jim Pope, Sam Pratt etc. to name a few).

[northern yob]

Am I just naive and stuck in my ways or do others find climbing media these days in all its forms lacking in any depth or soul….?? It all (not all but most) just feels so much more superficial than it was…

Pretty sure every generation is obliged to say this of the following generation. I think it's just the nature of things that the media you grow up with has a deep, lasting impact on you in a way that things you're exposed to later in life often don't. I think the current crop of young'uns are putting out plenty of high quality pictures and videos (wedge, Jim Pope, Sam Pratt etc. to name a few).

Obvs I’m self aware enough to be more than aware of this…. Hence the question….

I find it really interesting…. Is there the same amount of quality stuff out there regardless, is it just harder to see due to the tidal wave of shite that comes with social media etc…

I agree there is some stuff, Sam Pratt, Will rupp have done stuff with soul, not sure the wedge stuff counts for me, it’s very good climbing pr0n, but it’s still pr0n!

I think less and less climbers these days are interested as much as my generation were, people like jim are like I was, voracious consumers of it, but I genuinely feel there are less and less of them these days. Interestingly if you go a few generations before mine, I think they were less bothered about  knowing what other people were up to…is it cause or effect, im sure people in the future will be talking about inspirational Instagram accounts, I do wonder if my generation, and the ones just before and after was a zenith of interest and content.

Ultimately I’m as clueless as anyone, what I do know is that climbing media just doesn’t quite do it for me as much as it used to, and that definitely isn’t due to the lack of cool things being done.

[northern yob]

I will definitely hold my hand up to becoming slightly removed and out of touch with lots of modern climbing media, I really do wish there was more quality long form articles/films etc about the many cool things people are doing….

[SA Chris]

To quote the wise Abe Simpson "I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it and what's it seems weird and scary to me, and it will happen to you too".

[remus]

Obvs I’m self aware enough to be more than aware of this…. Hence the question….

Apologies for being a bit glib, it is an interesting question.

I find it really interesting…. Is there the same amount of quality stuff out there regardless, is it just harder to see due to the tidal wave of shite that comes with social media etc…

I think this is definitely part of it, the ease of putting stuff out there definitely means there's a lot more to wade through to find the good stuff. I guess ultimately it also depends a lot on what you're in to as climbing is so much wider these days. There's definitely a lot more indoor content now than there was 10 years ago and obviously that's not everyone's thing.

[spidermonkey09]

As a student I couldn't get enough of climbing media- articles, films, books, you name it. The more I've read though, the more I think that most of them don't say anything particularly interesting, including the old ones. Mountaineering exped books are, with a few laudable exceptions (Savage Arena, Freedom Climbers, one Day as a Tiger immediately spring to mind), tales of suffering and eventual success with little else going on in them. I enjoyed Nick Bullocks first book but found his second quite disappointing - second album syndrome? Climbing books; some are great, but most of them to my mind just rehash the same old stories over and over again. Dawes' book has some great stuff in along with a lot of flannel. I enjoyed Douglas' biography of Moon but probably wouldn't read it again. I love Paul Pritchard, own Deep Play and The Totem Pole, went to climb it because of him, but he must have more stories than that! ( I say that advisedly as its obviously had a huge impact on his life and is a great tale to boot, but no point pretending I click on articles about his accident now, cause I don't!). The pieces I've enjoyed most over the years are probably essays rather than whole books - Al Alvarez, Ed Drummond etc.

Might just be an age thing as much as anything else? As we all get older perhaps we are more discerning of what media we spend our time on/with?

[Johnny Brown]

The media has made a huge difference.

Speaking as a photographer, I can say that my motivation for putting effort into a photo such that it might hold a person’s attention for 2 seconds while scrolling rather than a half second is basically nil, at least when compared to when I was shooting with a magazine in mind. Photos in mags would get looked at again and again, cut out, stuck on walls etc. A strong photo was able to make an impact such that we remember it decades later.

It’s not surprising that that has affected photographic style. There’s little point trying to get the whole epic of the route, the landscape and the climbing experience in one shot like I used to aim for. It doesn’t work on a phone screen. Now people go for a serious of shots to try to look different from the rest of the feed, swipe left and get a mood across.

Plus, in instagram, to get content out beyond your existing audience you have to game the reels, where your picture literally disappears if the user doesn’t intervene to pause it. The whole point of the platform is to encourage you to scroll on and engage with more content (inc adverts obvs), rather than slow down and engage deeply with any content in particular. This is largely why I don’t bother posting. As much as appreciate I might be Abe Simpson,  really hope a better platform usurps it soon. Just one that had a view mode for an iPad, let alone a laptop, would be an improvement.

[northern yob]

For me it was always photographs…. On many different levels they were truly what inspired me!
The power of climbing
The ronde spire
Heinz Zak’s rock stars
Himalayan alpine style
The Patagonia and BD catalogue’s
Neil F’s Johnny shots
Guidebook photo’s
I was always more into essays/articles than books. All our yesterdays by Al Manson is a fantastic essay. I must’ve spent literally hours if not days reading history sections in guidebooks. I suppose it’s mellow, wedge and the like these days, which I get, I still watch/soak it all in, but it just seems so much less permanent,fleeting glimpses of time. Nothing like as JB alludes to, a photograph which literally tells a story. I hope it is just that I’m out of touch, and that people do connect with it all now like I do/did with the old stuff .

[spidermonkey09]

I think Instagram is pretty established now. Hard to see it going anywhere anytime soon.

I think people do engage, but even if they don't in the same way you did, or I did, I'd imagine they still think it's worthwhile. One improvement over mags is that it's far less UK/euro centric. Much more understanding of eg the US/Japanese scenes now, which is facilitated by the Internet.

[galpinos]

I guess I'm also an old dinosaur. I used to horde magazines, Patagonia and BD catalogues etc.

Despite the flood of mediocre to good imagery out there there are still some social media accounts that produce stuff I find engaging.

I still like print media though. I subscribe to Alpinist, have Jon Griffiths and Ben Tibbets coffe table books and I've also bought the Pembroke Bond and Friends in High Places which I really liked and hope will show more stuff like that can get printed.

You'll always have the cover of OTE 120 JB!

[36chambers]

I suppose it’s mellow, wedge and the like these days, which I get, I still watch/soak it all in, but it just seems so much less permanent,fleeting glimpses of time. Nothing like as JB alludes to, a photograph which literally tells a story. I hope it is just that I’m out of touch, and that people do connect with it all now like I do/did with the old stuff .

if the story is something like "we set up a top rope, hid it around the corner and pretended to be doing something bold and dramatic", I definitely take wedge over that.

I distinctly remember being my young naive self and finding out that some classic shots were likely staged with top ropes etc. It really spoilt the whole thing for me.

[remus]

You'll always have the cover of OTE 120 JB!

[northern yob]

I suppose it’s mellow, wedge and the like these days, which I get, I still watch/soak it all in, but it just seems so much less permanent,fleeting glimpses of time. Nothing like as JB alludes to, a photograph which literally tells a story. I hope it is just that I’m out of touch, and that people do connect with it all now like I do/did with the old stuff .

if the story is something like "we set up a top rope, hid it around the corner and pretended to be doing something bold and dramatic", I definitely take wedge over that.

I distinctly remember being my young naive self and finding out that some classic shots were likely staged with top ropes etc. It really spoilt the whole thing for me.

That’s not what actually happened though is it….?? Name a shot where they weren’t creating a photograph of what they had done?? You make it sound like the people in the shots hadn’t ever been there for real and that just isn’t the case! Gresh might be a cheeseball and more than happy to stage shots, but he was actually up there on equilibrium for real at some point, and that for me more than buys him a staged shot…

Don’t get me wrong I prefer genuine shots, and I like the wedge/mellow stuff I’m not knocking it at all, I just don’t think it will stay iconic and have influence over time like a great photograph will, staged or not.

[petejh]

As a student I couldn't get enough of climbing media- articles, films, books, you name it. The more I've read though, the more I think that most of them don't say anything particularly interesting, including the old ones. Mountaineering exped books are, with a few laudable exceptions (Savage Arena, Freedom Climbers, one Day as a Tiger immediately spring to mind), tales of suffering and eventual success with little else going on in them. I enjoyed Nick Bullocks first book but found his second quite disappointing - second album syndrome? Climbing books; some are great, but most of them to my mind just rehash the same old stories over and over again. Dawes' book has some great stuff in along with a lot of flannel. I enjoyed Douglas' biography of Moon but probably wouldn't read it again. I love Paul Pritchard, own Deep Play and The Totem Pole, went to climb it because of him, but he must have more stories than that! ( I say that advisedly as its obviously had a huge impact on his life and is a great tale to boot, but no point pretending I click on articles about his accident now, cause I don't!). The pieces I've enjoyed most over the years are probably essays rather than whole books - Al Alvarez, Ed Drummond etc.

Might just be an age thing as much as anything else? As we all get older perhaps we are more discerning of what media we spend our time on/with?

Just to shout out for Ed Douglas's writing. He tends to focus on the personalities not the climbs, and this is what makes for interesting stories. When you remove the human element climbs are pretty dull things to read about, unless you're an avid geology fan.   

[36chambers]

That’s not what actually happened though is it….?? Name a shot where they weren’t creating a photograph of what they had done?? You make it sound like the people in the shots hadn’t ever been there for real and that just isn’t the case! Gresh might be a cheeseball and more than happy to stage shots, but he was actually up there on equilibrium for real at some point, and that for me more than buys him a staged shot…

I suppose it's more how it was done, rather than what was done. Like this Dunny one, if this is a shot of him genuinely in this position on the sharp end, then it's utterly brilliant. If he's messing around on top rope, then it's not authentic and the magic's completely gone for me.

There's obviously plenty of good reasons for staging photos, I just wish it was explicitly stated.

I'd much rather see an authentic shot of someone in a hairy position on an E4 than Gresh power posing, on top rope, on an E10.

End of the Affair has seen some of the most egregious examples. The caption in this one seems to acknowledge the pretence:

(Thanks for scanning it Remus)

[northern yob]

That’s not what actually happened though is it….?? Name a shot where they weren’t creating a photograph of what they had done?? You make it sound like the people in the shots hadn’t ever been there for real and that just isn’t the case! Gresh might be a cheeseball and more than happy to stage shots, but he was actually up there on equilibrium for real at some point, and that for me more than buys him a staged shot…

I suppose it's more how it was done, rather than what was done. Like this Dunny one, if this is a shot of him genuinely in this position on the sharp end, then it's utterly brilliant. If he's messing around on top rope, then it's not authentic and the magic's completely gone for me.

There's obviously plenty of good reasons for staging photos, I just wish it was explicitly stated.

I'd much rather see an authentic shot of someone in a hairy position on an E4 than Gresh power posing, on top rope, on an E10.

End of the Affair has seen some of the most egregious examples. The caption in this one seems to acknowledge the pretence:

(Thanks for scanning it Remus)

Good post! I pretty much agree…. Not sure I’d go so far as rather seeing an authentic E4 shot as opposed to a staged shot of a historically important and inspirational route.

A lot more shots than people think were ultimately staged I think, I was always immensely influenced by shots of El cap, wether lynn hill or the hubers literally all are staged to some degree, I defo think they are better/more important than another shot of a punter laybacking the hollow flake gripped. I very much see your point though.

[El Mocho]

You'll always have the cover of OTE 120 JB!

I guess this is where the realities of sponsorship/making a living from climbing in the '90s/00s come in. I think the Gresh cover photo on Meshuga came out around the same time as the above issue. We were randomly at Black Rocks the day of the Gresh photo shoot and I (if I remember correctly) ended up belaying him on the hidden top rope. It was a nicely orchestrated affair, Gresh in his tight T, logos a plenty, grimace for the camera... Whereas the above had zero staging to it, fully going for the climb (I fell off seconds after the photo was taken, expected to go miles but amazingly the gear just below me stayed in) with no thought on sponsored logos or grooming.

Both me and Gresh were sponsored by DMM and likely on identical (unless his was bigger!) photo incentive deals. As part of the deal logos had to be clearly visible. Gresh will have undoubtedly had a pay out whereas I got mine refused for the above image. This experience led to me asking for my photo incentive to be removed from my contract as I didn't like the results that it led to, in fact I've never signed any contract with sponsors again. I've never tried to make a living from climbing so it's easy to do this, no dis of people who have chosen to go down that route - it was really hard back then (and likely still is for the majority)  to actually pay the bills from climbing sponsorship so understandable that you may have to compromise your ethics to get the £.

I guess what I'm saying is that for the more professionally minded climber they would prefer to go back and get a staged photo, checking that all sponsors gear/logos are on show and keeping them happy. Making sure the photographer gets a nice image, cropped to make a front cover etc rather than going with a potentially less good but authentic photo. And for the photographer is will undoubtedly be easier to get staged photos with the climber doing all they can to help rather than on the actual ascent.

[Johnny Brown]

Wow, and there was me thinking DMM were the good guys!

Suspect the Gresh Meshuga image was earlier as for me it being the absolute peak of posing with logos, I remember feeling strongly turned off by it - which fed into my subsequent style - it represented everything I was against.

The irony is I reckon DMM will have had good marketing value over the years from our image - the logos are clearly visible on the draws and it has the authenticity such brands are desperate to maintain nowadays. Only last month I mentioned your name (name dropping to ex-climbers at orienteering) and he immediately brought up this shot, not knowing I'd taken it.

[Tom de Gay]

Suspect the Gresh Meshuga image was earlier

It was 2 years earlier, in early 2000. To be fair, he did unclip from the top rope in a pretty trouser-filling position. Must have been tempting not to lower it down again, just for a moment, “Sorry Neil, thought we were done for the day!”

[spidermonkey09]

Anyone got a link to these images?

[Tom de Gay]