[SamT]

 

[Fiend]

 

I propose - given that the OG chopper Tony has proven by his subsequent actions, attitude, and attempts at "discussion" that he did not chop the bolts based on a neutral "benefit of the climbing scene" ethical stance, that the bolt(s) stay in until summer, giving people time to climb or attempt the route(s) and then have a proper vote at a BMC area meet late summer (including email votes for those who can't attend).

[stone]

I propose - given that the OG chopper Tony has proven by his subsequent actions, attitude, and attempts at "discussion" that he did not chop the bolts based on a neutral "benefit of the climbing scene" ethical stance, that the bolt(s) stay in until summer, giving people time to climb or attempt the route(s) and then have a proper vote at a BMC area meet late summer (including email votes for those who can't attend).

To me that isn't "given" at all.

[SamT]

If someone climbs said route(s) without the bolts, on trad gear, would the bolters then be ok with them being chopped (again).

[northern yob]

If someone climbs said route(s) without the bolts, on trad gear, would the bolters then be ok with them being chopped (again).

I believe the said bolt has already been despatched…..

Sorry fiend I can’t see a legitimate reason for it staying in, for me it should really be left in its natural state whilst things are sorted out, however I don’t think it’s possible to sort anything out if people are going to continue behaving like children, I think it’s really disappointing what’s happening and frankly pathetic, regardless of where anyone stands with the whole debacle.

[petejh]

If someone climbs said route(s) without the bolts, on trad gear, would the bolters then be ok with them being chopped (again).

Bastille has also been climbed bolt-free. Are you happy to apply the same logic and chop Bastille's bolts?

I'm considering setting up a tool-hire shop in Matlock.

[SamT]

I've discussed this with various folks recently and you know, I think I am. 

I used to pour over 'Body Machine' video of Rons,as a youth, where he climbs Bastille on the old rusty ringpull aid bolts.    I view them as relics to be eliminated by better, bolder climbers; like the aid points of old. I dont see them as essential aspects of the route that should be replaced when they a deemed too old and rusty to be safe.  (if you're going to extend that approach, shouldn't they then be regularly inspected and pull tested, to ensure they are indeed safe and eliminate any risk  ).

Bastilles always been on my list, but if the general consensus of 'no new or replacement bolts on High Tor Main face' prevails, then I'd be happy enough to forgo the lead tick if I find my self no longer bold/strong/fit enough.
I'd be content to just top rope/shunt it, if I really really want to enjoy the climbing on it.

(likewise Darius/LC and other bolts).

[petejh]

Have led LC and Darius, haven't led Bastille.

Darius, personally think it would add to the experience if the bolt wasn't there. That finish would be (even more)exciting and make the route a full-fat E3 within the mental capability of loads of mid-grade climbers. Also isn't there some gear that could substitute the bolt?

I don't think Lyme Cryme bolt/s is relevant to the debate as they're not pieces of 'protection',  I didn't bother clipping them as they'd be unlikely to protect anything. Just obviously-unsound rusty relics, that would be better cleaned off the route out of a motivation for tidiness and not leaving corroded shit lying around on rock climbs, rather than any ethical statement.


Bastille.. dunno.

[SamT]

Ditto.. 

Out of interest, are the bolts in the upper wall of Bastille still the same ones Ron clipped...  or were the aid bolts replaced at some stage...

https://youtu.be/kwqlYLg9Bic?si=sNxs_wHGHW-72Pzq&t=341

[Bonjoy]

Everyone is against a bolt war and wants the madness to stop… just so long as it stops with their preferred  outcome on top.
FFS just flip a coin or something! 

[Johnny Brown]

Given that it would appear only Simon is placing them, whereas from what I hear removal is by multiple parties (plus a queue of other volunteers if required), I think it’s quite clear who needs to stop.

Let’s not pretend these are equivalent acts. As much as I have sympathy with the request to respect people’s feelings, the damage to the crag will remain long after the protagonists are all dead.

[petejh]

Don’t agree with that logic JB.

It’s one person’s new route - obvious really that the one person who’s most emotionally vested in the first ascent would be replacing bolts chopped on their route.

Whereas lots of people are emotionally vested in the status quo of Tony’s conservative version of the ethics for high tor. So no surprise that various people would be willing to remove bolts to preserve as they see it a status quo.

It doesn’t say a lot about the merits or not of establishing a specific new bolted route on high tor, as so few people are actually doing that.

Lots of people ‘might’ be interested in ‘allowing’ a specific new bolted route or routes on high tor but they aren’t going to express that by going out and replacing Simon’s bolt for him

To get a better idea of sentiment I think you’d need to anonymously poll a lot of people on a very specific question which will probably never happen.

the damage to the crag Tony’s and Simon’s reputations will remain long after the protagonists are all dead.

Well maybe not that long.

[Wellsy]

Everyone is against a bolt war and wants the madness to stop… just so long as it stops with their preferred  outcome on top.
FFS just flip a coin or something! 

Wouldn't hold your breath on that front... I reckon chop report incoming...

[Bonjoy]

Doesn't Jason's post imply it has already been chopped?