[petejh]

I think the point of the test is to just have an additional piece of data that can be standardised across the board and measured against a similar cohort to then give you a metric you can improve upon, it’s not secret that those results don’t necessarily reflect how you climb, after all it’s a skill sport first and foremost.

…
you can’t specifically say a score = a grade but I think across a large dataset that’s what it might show.

…
This data as well as strength and conditioning, flexibility etc all are part of a bigger picture …

Things is, climbing well is a very big picture. I’d use an analogy of a bell curve for sport 8a success that covers a huge range of ‘single test result x’. And people in the lattice training way do seem to place a lot of emphasis on their 20mm edge ability. This is natural - it’s been turned into another badge of status. It’s just another grade system to stratify ourselves, by another name (%BW).

I wonder if you were to widen the focus of a study to encompass favourite ice-cream flavour and month born, whether the correlation between ‘x-flavour ice cream, x-month born’ and ‘x-grade climbed’ would massively differ statistically, compared to lattice edge and grade climbed. It probably would..  at least it should! But would be interesting to see just how much statistical significance lattice edge ability has for predicting climbing grade.
But of course there’s now also a behavioural bias introduced for some climbers - people can read on forums like this what they should be able to climb, or talk to their friends who use the edge test data which suggests what they should be able to climb (or not climb, in the case of Liam and Bradders above).

This isn’t meant to knock, I’d be genuinely curious to see some robust significance.

[mrjonathanr]

That’s a fair point Gav. I used to think about people who spent a lot of time training,  if they liked climbing so much, why didn’t they do more of it? That wouldn’t be the case nowadays.

[yetix]

Not sure I could climb more, I've spent every day available (3-4 days a week) climbing on rock that I can since covid and pre covid was doing the exact same thing...

[abarro81]

Why not measure using a metric that does correlate well with crimpy bouldering?

Presumably because crimpy bouldering on small holds is actually quite a small subset of climbing, especially if you include route climbing? I quite rarely pull on <10mm holds outdoors. No a single hold that small on something like a Moonboard.
Especially for sport climbing I think what you can do on a decent edge with 1-arm is usually more relevant than rat crimps (though maybe 15mm would be more relevant than 20mm above a certain level?). Ideally you'd test 1/2 crimp, F3 drag and F3 half-crimp on a decent edge, F2, M2, mono, half-crimp micros, full-crimp micros... but the testing would become unwieldy to be used commercially.

"It might be relevant to state that I test much better on micros (relatively) e.g. I can do over 50kg on a 6mm edge full crimped." - yeah this doesn't surprise me. I know a few people who could easily burn me off on micros but I would burn off on a decent edge. Unsurprisingly this follows through to climbing - they would generally do better than me on small hold vert while I would do better than them on steeper stuff on OK edges. Ditto people who test unusually well on pockets tend to be good at pocket climbing (what a surprise). I agree it would be much better to have wording that reflects this on any testing results, even if only in the form of a caveat "You suck and have weak fingers on this test. However, you may have unusually strong fingers on different hold/grip types like pockets or rat crimps", you could even use it as a way to push an expanded testing package to those who test unusually well or badly on the normal test!

I really think this is counter productive to 99% of peoples progression.

I broadly agree with the sentiment here - maybe not that it's counterproductive per se, but that it's a distraction. Most climbers suck at climbing and need to gain experience doing purposeful climbing on rock (especially for route climbing and even more so for onsighting). I include myself in that, despite having done a lot of climbing rocks in my life and having probably achieved a fair amount for my physical level - I'm bad on slopey feet, bad on small feet, bad at bridging, bad at heels, not that good at knees compared to the people who are really good at them... and the key is just to spend more time developing these skills on rock rather than anything else I think. But as yetix points out, spending more time rock climbing on rocks of the right style can be quite hard if you also have a job!

[Wellsy]

Having dead strong fingers only helps so much. I was able to hang for 4 seconds on one straight arm from the 20mm edge last year, and my max two-armed added weight for ten seconds was 47.5kgs. I'm told that this is way beyond 7A+/7B which is my peak, but I honestly can barely pull onto techy vert crimp 7As on grit

It is a technical sport. I doubt there's anything that Lionel Messi could do in the gym that would convince you he's the best football player in the world if you didn't already know, but on the pitch he is something else. Ondra is the greatest route climber of all time, maybe even just the greatest climber of all time, but I bet if you went through the school rooms membership list you could find plenty of people with higher objective strength metrics than him.

[petejh]

Most climbers suck at climbing and need to gain experience doing purposeful climbing on rock
…
I'm bad on slopey feet, bad on small feet, bad at bridging, bad at heels, …
key is just to spend more time developing these skills on rock rather than anything else I think.
…
spending more time rock climbing on rocks of the right style can be quite hard if you also have a job!

I think if we’re honest we have ample time to improve, but little inclination to spend it on climbing we suck at. Therefore plateau.

When did you last purposely spend time on those styles of climbing you say you suck at, versus spending time doing styles you’re good at and enjoy?

[Dingdong]

I will say, when trying something exceptionally hard it’s quite easy to get injured if your body isn’t robust enough - a lot of the times this can be offset by training along with climbing, which is what I mostly use it for, since training my shoulders and elbows have become bulletproof compared to a few years back where I’d get elbow tendinitis from doing compression problems around 7B, I can now project 8A compression without issues

[User deactivated.]

I quite rarely pull on <10mm holds outdoors. No a single hold that small on something like a Moonboard.
Especially for sport climbing I think what you can do on a decent edge with 1-arm is usually more relevant than rat crimps (though maybe 15mm would be more relevant than 20mm above a certain level?).

Interesting. As a Yorkshire based boulderer (predominantly on gritstone), I rarely pull on a good flat edge that would be relevant to a 20mm max hang test. Instead they're either really small (micro / full crimp strength) or really large (sloper / wrist strength) and obviously it's more about making sure you time your attempts with the passing of clouds, brushing off scrittle and praying for luck, etc... When there is a good edge, I can't think of any examples where you'd need one arm hang levels of strength on it as your feet should be taking much of the load. I'd probably take extra hip mobility over more max hang strength. TLDR - I agree that climbing is specific.

[abarro81]

I think if we’re honest we have ample time to improve, but little inclination to spend it on climbing we suck at. Therefore plateau.

When did you last purposely spend time on those styles of climbing you say you suck at, versus spending time doing styles you’re good at and enjoy?

Yeah, probably true! Though I spend a lot of time kneebaring and still am not actually that good compared to the wizards.

Realistically the last time I did it with heels consistently was 2016, driven by being in areas with lots of heels so it happened naturally rather than having to hunt it out. With vert it's endlessly on the to do list and never happens consistently, just bits and bobs here and there!

As a Yorkshire based boulderer (predominantly on gritstone), I rarely pull on a good flat edge

Yeah, 1-arm on a 20mm is probably a test that's much more relevant for Euro sport climbing or jumping around in Rocklands than Yorkshire grit!

[petejh]

This leads to a business opportunity missed by lattice. GME you may want to take note.

You could guarantee to improve a client’s grade. The caveat is it would be specific to styles of climbing they suck at. The training? Going climbing on styles they suck at. It wouldn’t be enjoyable to begin with.

[remus]

You could guarantee to improve a client’s grade. The caveat is it would be specific to styles of climbing they suck at. The training? Going climbing on styles they suck at. It wouldn’t be enjoyable to begin with.

I've been bashing my head against a gritstone wall for the last 3 years and Im still just as shit as I ever was. Where do I get my refund?

[petejh]

T&C’s:

Doesn’t apply to gritstone.

[Paul B]

This leads to a business opportunity missed by lattice. GME you may want to take note.

From memory Jerry had an article over on CragX which consisted of a spider diagram with the idea being you printed it off and gave copies to your mates/peers to score you on the areas listed and then you'd get feedback on what your actual weaknesses were to go and redress.

I really think this is counter productive to 99% of peoples progression.

I broadly agree with the sentiment here - maybe not that it's counterproductive per se, but that it's a distraction.

I'm with Gav; at the lower end of people being sold training plans (and this week alone I've seen a F7a personalised training plan testimonial!) it's a shortcut to achieving 'a thing' (e.g. a given grade) without ample consideration of what that might mean for the future. I led myself down this path by prioritising training and board climbing to the detriment of actually climbing and it's demoralising, quite hard and slow to correct those issues in the future when you're used to simply relying on being stronger than what's in front of you.

[steveri]

Wonder if there's a lattice equivalent for fell-running yet. A lot of the things that can be said about 'romantic old school reasons for getting into climbing' can be said about reasons for getting into fell-running. 

Kind of, with things like the BGR there's a long tradition of paying it forward, people helping out randoms from around the country to get to know the route, pace, etc, meeting the first time Dunmail Raise layby at 2am. Then the same treatment when you fancy a pop yourself.

It's a lifetime tick now along with UTMB, Ironman and stuff now. You can pay someone to guide you around the whole thing now for a chunky fee. Same sort of debate as on here.

Skiddaw Fell Race: tenner on the day, Keswick AC.
Skiddaw Mountain Run: £42.50, Keswick Mountain Festival. Same thing, with more carefully crafted copywriting and chip timing.

Most of the N Wales I do are around a fiver with prizes like a bag of potatoes, wine, beer, chocolate, or a watering can.

[gme]

This leads to a business opportunity missed by lattice. GME you may want to take note.

You could guarantee to improve a client’s grade. The caveat is it would be specific to styles of climbing they suck at. The training? Going climbing on styles they suck at. It wouldn’t be enjoyable to begin with.

ts easy. You do your tests at the tor and the foundry, 3 month retests in Yorkshire, 6 months in wales and the end of year in Kalymnos. I guarantee you a 4 grade improvement.

[Fultonius]

A mate of mine runs a "mountain running guide service" in Norway. People actually pay to be shown where to go for a run. The mind boggles. 

[teestub]

A mate of mine runs a "mountain running guide service" in Norway. People actually pay to be shown where to go for a run. The mind boggles. 

Is this much different from mountain guides in the UK? My only view into Norwegian mountain running is watching Kílian’s vids, but I assume there’s a lot of potential for scrambling terrain etc.?

[Rocksteady]

I will say, when trying something exceptionally hard it’s quite easy to get injured if your body isn’t robust enough - a lot of the times this can be offset by training along with climbing, which is what I mostly use it for, since training my shoulders and elbows have become bulletproof compared to a few years back where I’d get elbow tendinitis from doing compression problems around 7B, I can now project 8A compression without issues

I like this, this is what I need the most - have found for a number of years that when I step up training/try hard projects I get injured with shoulders and elbows being weak links.

Do you mind sharing what sort of exercises you did to achieve bulletproofing? Thanks.

[Dingdong]

I will say, when trying something exceptionally hard it’s quite easy to get injured if your body isn’t robust enough - a lot of the times this can be offset by training along with climbing, which is what I mostly use it for, since training my shoulders and elbows have become bulletproof compared to a few years back where I’d get elbow tendinitis from doing compression problems around 7B, I can now project 8A compression without issues

I like this, this is what I need the most - have found for a number of years that when I step up training/try hard projects I get injured with shoulders and elbows being weak links.

Do you mind sharing what sort of exercises you did to achieve bulletproofing? Thanks.

Just generally strengthening doing things such as progressively loading wide pull-ups, isometric one arm hangs on a bar, weighted one arm shrugs, shoulder rotations seated and probated, Arnold press etc more than anything it’s just about that consistency

[mrjonathanr]

I like this, this is what I need the most - have found for a number of years that when I step up training/try hard projects I get injured with shoulders and elbows being weak links.

Do you mind sharing what sort of exercises you did to achieve bulletproofing? Thanks.

weighted one arm shrugs, shoulder rotations seated and/or pronated, Arnold press

Done heavy and slow. Making my shoulders more stable resulted in happier elbows.

[stone]

Dingdong and mrjonathanr have reminded me to be more assiduous with such injury prevention conditioning exercises. I know what they say about this is spot on. I think this is especially true for "naturally weaker" people such as myself. I've also noticed that keen middle aged women climbers seem especially likely to be into doing such training (basically everyone in that demographic who I know/climb-with is).

[Dingdong]

It’s pivotal unless you’ve been climbing since 5 years old or are a genetic freak. I started at 28, 32 now so I’ve had to put the extra work in to make my body capable of handling what I throw at it.

This year I’m working towards my first 8A and opened accounts on 2-3 different ones that suit me well and my body has felt like it can keep up with the demand whereas a few years ago i was getting injured on lower graded climbs in similar styles (power/compression).

It also helps that Mina is my coach and she understands that climbing comes first so all my training is centred around getting out 3 times a week where weather permits and then training around that. Works well for me anyways!

[SA Chris]

Dingdong and mrjonathanr have reminded me to be more assiduous with such injury prevention conditioning exercises. I know what they say about this is spot on. I think this is especially true for "naturally weaker" people such as myself.

I've made it habit to do shoulder work with kettlebells in front of the TV, doesn't eat into free time and stops me dozing off.

[stone]

I'm with Gav; at the lower end of people being sold training plans (and this week alone I've seen a F7a personalised training plan testimonial!) it's a shortcut to achieving 'a thing' (e.g. a given grade) without ample consideration of what that might mean for the future. I led myself down this path by prioritising training and board climbing to the detriment of actually climbing and it's demoralising, quite hard and slow to correct those issues in the future when you're used to simply relying on being stronger than what's in front of you.

I'm very unsure when I read stuff like this. My impression (happy to be corrected) is that there are several dimensions to people's climbing talents and climbing/training history.

I've climbed regularly for 35 years, always been slow to read-the-rock and never been "a strong climber". I've sort of drifted between different styles of climbing, partly driven by circumstance. In my early 20s I was totally focussed on Alpine and Scottish winter climbing. I had a go at non-technical Yosemite big wall climbing. I then did a bit of "gritstone bouldering circuits" stuff. Then I got into easy sport onsight climbing in Portland and trad in Dorset and Pembroke. I then moved to the Peak and settled on sport epic-sieging.

I've never had a go at the "focussed beast-mode" training that Paul B was renowned for and now says he regrets. My guess is that even if I had tried that in my 20s, I would have had to have been very careful and would have needed to have done a lot of injury prevention conditioning exercises or I would have broken. It is not at all clear to me though that it would have made my climbing movement efficiency etc even worse. My impression is that some people are naturals when it comes to that and some are not. Everyone can improve by getting more experience but I still think individuals are different.

I remember when Keith Bradbury and Rich Simpson were really into training and occasionally emerged to go to the crag. At the time, Keith was terrible on rock. He was as bad as me despite being incredibly strong. Rich Simpson (supposedly) was able to emerge and send. I remember thinking to myself that if I was dedicated at training I would be bound to be like Keith not Rich. Obviously what actually then happened was that Keith spent some time in Font and translated his strength into climbing ability. I had seen Paul B as being another inspiring example of that. To me, someone climbing Voyager has to have done something right.

Perhaps Paul you get frustrated with not being able to easily read the rock and not being at your PB strength to overcome that by just beasting past anyhow. I'm not sure though that previously getting super strong can actually be blamed for that. Perhaps if you had never got strong, you would still find reading the rock a challenge just as I do.

When I was 40yo I went bouldering a couple of times at Almscliffe after not having bouldered there since my 20s. At 40yo, I could do Demon Wall Roof and Stu's Left Hand whilst they were beyond me when I was in my 20s. I guess pottering at the Tor (what I was doing when 40yo) is more strenuous than the bouldering circuits I was doing at Caley and Almscliffe in my 20s and that had caused me to actually find grit bouldering easier than when it was what I was spending my time doing. My impression is that training can be just an extension of that principle.

[Stu Littlefair]

This isn’t meant to knock, I’d be genuinely curious to see some robust significance.

To balance the (good and necessary) skepticism of the 20mm test on here, it's worth pointing out that Lattice did release the data (or at least a screenshot of it) from their testing.

https://www.facebook.com/latticetraining/posts/free-data-release-did-you-know-that-you-can-access-our-database-and-finger-stren/1114657262199930/

Assuming the box-and-whisker plot uses standard settings, those little grey boxes show the range covered by 25-75% of climbers, so half of the population lie inside this box, half outside.

So - apart from a decent number of outliers - most 8A climbers can pull 150-175% of their bodyweight on a 20mm edge. From my point of view this is a pretty reliable metric and you probably already know if you are an outlier (great technique/flexibility, massive, tiny, etc).

Obviously it's not perfect but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater