[abarro81]

In Sept I spent half my climbing days paddling/walking 1hr up a river to sport climb. Even after all that faff I would have been put off doing routes where I had to arrange my own "bolts". [I appreciate the comparison is pretty poor because I was at a crag with lots of amazing routes, but you get my point - faff of approach being high does not mean that lazy equipping of routes is ok]

"You say I should have done a designer danger route, then are outraged when I agree"
You didn't agree though, did you. You suggested modifying an existing route to create a designer danger route, which is fundamentally a different kettle of fish and clearly trolling (or stupid/naive if you can't see the difference).

It still basically feels like you fucked yourself over - probably through a lack of emotional intelligence/empathy; I can sympathise, since that's also not a strong point of mine - but can't bring yourself to admit it. It feels like you're clutching at straws a little bit rather than realising that you messed up and really shouldn't do the same again if you want to preserve a trad project - it would be madness not to proactively try get people on board with taking this unusual approach (in a few limited situations) in advance.

[mrjonathanr]

Hi Franco, a couple of observations from someone with no skin in this particular game.

Firstly, a massive well done for climbing such an obviously brick hard line in the quarries. 

And a second well done for engaging in debate on this thread

Thirdly, you’re clearly a massively talented (and motivated) climber - chapeau.

But your gift for winding people up, man.. it’s practically a superpower. It’s unique. I do hope however, that you go on to produce lots more exciting hard routes (ideally in recognisable styles). 

[Franco]

Can we park the 'lazy'? People are accusing me of trolling, but time and again people are deliberately misconstruing what's gone on. It wasn't lazy. It was a deliberate choice. The rest of your reply is overly focused on semantics. I don't want to have to get everything I write on here checked by my lawyer. I think you get the jist of what I meant by 'agree'.

I just fundamentally disagree that I fucked up. I climbed a great new sport climb and left it in a state that it could still be done on trad. I've come on here to engage with the corner of the climbing community that seems most extreme in its criticism of this. Now we're going round in circles.

You can get angry and cry "troll", but fundamentally removing bolts is no more an act of vandalism than placing them. It's completely arbitrary what we decide is right or wrong and history has shown that just because you're in the majority,  doesn't mean your views are right.

As it stands, I'm pretty relaxed about these things. I was sad about the bolts in Dewin Stone, but didnt bitch about it to anyone, apart from what ive said on here. I see people enjoy sport climbing and that they're in the majority. I can do something else, or not,  but don't act like your position has any inherent truth at its base, cause it doesn't.

[petejh]

Franco I've never suggested you 'should' have bolted a designer danger route? I've suggested you 'could' have, as one option. Hey it's just an alternative opinion, they're ok to have aren't they, you don't need to agree. Dunno why you're getting upset about it?
Other options exist - you could have fully bolted it, or you could have led it as a bold trad route. I genuinely have no strong opinion on which option is 'better' - I expect most people don't feel that strongly either, it appears only you who's ideological about 'no bolts' here. All that almost everyone else agrees on is your dangly rope style is bollocks and will inevitably just lead to other routes in this style getting bolted.

Just like people were outraged with the first bolts being placed, you may be outraged by the chopping, but I really don't think you've got your head around how many bold Trad climbs have been destroyed by bolting. Both chopping and bolting are in a sense vandalism, but to act all holier than thou because you currently hold a majority opinion (although I am getting some messages of support on this) is at best fairly narrow minded.

Your argument doesn't make any sense. You had a hard trad project, it wasn't bolted, and you did all the moves cleanly. So why didn't you lead it trad? No shame that you didn't, and nobody really cares that you didn't.  But you failed to climb it as a trad route and ended up getting your precious trad project bolted by claiming a first ascent of a sport route instead. In a batshit retrograde poor style that literally almost everybody thinks doesn't make any sense! 

Dead horse well and truly flogged to death.

[abarro81]

I think you get the jist of what I meant by 'agree'.

Yes, but I don't think that you did agree.

The rest of your reply is overly focused on semantics.

The rest of my reply is paras 1 and 3, which don't appear to me to have anything to do with semantics.

This is very boring now.

[Fiend]

onsight solo with a copy of the bible rammed up your arse on one end

Shout out to one of the better contributions to the debate, and a style we can all aspire to, unless of course that onsight bible-plugged solo is next to, errr, umm, say, a hanging knotted rope for back-up 

Hats off to Franco if this is all a performance art piece satirising the contemporary gender debate.

The same hats we're supposed to be eating, or different hats?? 

[SA Chris]

Shout out to one of the better contributions to the debate, and a style we can all aspire to, unless of course that onsight bible-plugged solo is next to, errr, umm, say, a hanging knotted rope for back-up 

And only the King James version obviously.

[mrjonathanr]

Shout out to one of the better contributions to the debate, and a style we can all aspire to, unless of course that onsight bible-plugged solo is next to, errr, umm, say, a hanging knotted rope for back-up 

And only the King James version obviously.

Of course! Gideons strictly on the other side of the valley.

[andy moles]

I just fundamentally disagree that I fucked up.

Like many things in this thread, 'fucked up' is a bit strong. Shot yourself in the foot, more like? You didn't want for it to be bolted, and it got bolted. You might not consider yourself accountable for that, but there's no question if you hadn't claimed it as a sport route then it wouldn't have happened? I think you made a misjudgement about how accepting the community would be about making your own rules/having cake and eating it, nothing worse than that.

[Duma]

...The fact there are edge cases is never a good argument for suggesting all categories are valueless and should be abandoned.
Hats off to Franco if this is all a performance art piece satirising the contemporary gender debate.

Lol!

[grimer]

Meanwhile, on the far end of a ledge partway up El Cap, Siebe is thinking to himself, Jesus, that English guy spends a lot of time on his phone…

[lukeyboy]

Meanwhile, on the far end of a ledge partway up El Cap, Siebe is thinking to himself, Jesus, that English guy spends a lot of time on his phone…

  fucking brilliant