[Andy F]

So maybe a bit of knicker untwisting is in order Andy.

Actually, I've no issues with Franco personally. How could I, I've never met him.
His relentless self promotion, whack ethics and bollocks grading I do find annoying though.
He's clearly a very talented, if a little misguided climber. I guess being brought up in the era of Ron, Jerry, Ben, Johnny and the rest of the 80's climbers had somewhat coloured my view on what to expect from those pushing the envelope.

[webbo]

So maybe a bit of knicker untwisting is in order Andy.

Actually, I've no issues with Franco personally. How could I, I've never met him.
His relentless self promotion, whack ethics and bollocks grading I do find annoying though.
He's clearly a very talented, if a little misguided climber. I guess being brought up in the era of Ron, Jerry, Ben, Johnny and the rest of the 80's climbers had somewhat coloured my view on what to expect from those pushing the envelope.

But you also had the Gibsons, the Woodwards and few others. So nothing really changes.

[Andy F]

So maybe a bit of knicker untwisting is in order Andy.

Actually, I've no issues with Franco personally. How could I, I've never met him.
His relentless self promotion, whack ethics and bollocks grading I do find annoying though.
He's clearly a very talented, if a little misguided climber. I guess being brought up in the era of Ron, Jerry, Ben, Johnny and the rest of the 80's climbers had somewhat coloured my view on what to expect from those pushing the envelope.

But you also had the Gibsons, the Woodwards and few others. So nothing really changes.

And not forgetting John Redhead. He broke the envelope, but many of his ideas (bolts on Cloggy, chipping routes to create difficulty etc) are now viewed in a less than positive light, despite his obvious brilliance on rock.

[andy moles]

I guess being brought up in the era of Ron, Jerry, Ben, Johnny and the rest of the 80's climbers had somewhat coloured my view on what to expect from those pushing the envelope.

There was probably a previous generation proto-Andy F around at the time who thought they were all twats too.

[Andy F]

I guess being brought up in the era of Ron, Jerry, Ben, Johnny and the rest of the 80's climbers had somewhat coloured my view on what to expect from those pushing the envelope.

There was probably a previous generation proto-Andy F around at the time who thought they were all twats too.

Possible, but at that time climbing was a tiny sport filled with old beardy men reminiscing about the good old days. Oh 🤦‍♂️

[Franco]

I  don't regret what I did at all and will probably do it again with the project on the right.

Your post make no sense Franco. The route seems to have been bolted because of your approach (climbing it like a sport route and naming/grading it as a sport route). You also said you were upset by it being bolted. Not regretting it at all seems incompatible with being upset about it being bolted. If you repeat this on another route you shouldn't be surprised if it gets bolted!


I don't think your post makes any sense either. My actions didn't bolt the route. The actions of the person who bolted it, bolted the route. There was no need for it to be bolted. We'll see what happens in the future.

On the sika:
Lots of things on lime get "fixed" but lots of things also don't. The trend in my experience in recent times has been towards less retrospective use of sika to fix breakage unless strictly necessary (whether the break makes it easier or harder). Trying to claim that doing what you want with sika must be uncontroversial because there's other sika at the crag doesn't stand up to scrutiny; however, perfectly reasonable people will disagree on what should or shouldn't cross the line to fixing. I don't see a pile on here, I see people disagreeing with the idea that this kind of "fix" is uncontroversial. I've seen people get very angry at this kind of thing at other crags that have plenty of sika around, so it's not nearly as clear cut that this is ok as you seem to think. Personally I'd rather not manipulate with sika in the situation you're talking about, and I'd rather others didn't.

The pile on comes in the way these things are discussed - if they were measured responses free from allegations like yours here, then fine, but there are a whole host of accusations and outright name calling on this thread, all of it about stuff that goes on all the time (apart from maybe the knotted rope). 

I don't really like the idea of hold repair either, but the quality that's preserved by this tiny hold being filled in, kind of makes it worth it in my opinion and just seemed logical when the foot pick up move on the meltdown had had the same treatment.

[mark20]

There's definitely precedent, even of chipping. (Not to say that's right). As I say, there's a very obvious repair to the Meltdown jug for starters, which has been done to maintain a sequence, and I'm still yet to see any criticism of this on here. This is bright white cement on slate. Do you think that's wrong?

If it's a later repair, to maintain an established and nationally significant route then I don't have too much issue with it. The jug on The Ace 8B springs to mind. But I think this is quite different from altering the rock on a project, purely to force or create moves.
 
I guess I just don't quite understand your disappointment with the alteration of the rock by the bolting of the route (which you said is a sport route!) because you want to keep it pure and eventually climb it 'trad', whilst also altering the rock yourself by putting resin on it to create sequences.

Probably wouldn't worry too much about it, hardly the Dawn Wall is it 

[Franco]

The sequence was there as it is now. A piece fell off to reveal a hold, so I covered it up. I'm not forcing a sequence I've made up.  I don't see how whether it's a classic or not makes a difference?

[Franco]

There's definitely precedent, even of chipping. (Not to say that's right). As I say, there's a very obvious repair to the Meltdown jug for starters, which has been done to maintain a sequence, and I'm still yet to see any criticism of this on here. This is bright white cement on slate. Do you think that's wrong?

If it's a later repair, to maintain an established and nationally significant route then I don't have too much issue with it. The jug on The Ace 8B springs to mind. But I think this is quite different from altering the rock on a project, purely to force or create moves.
 
I guess I just don't quite understand your disappointment with the alteration of the rock by the bolting of the route (which you said is a sport route!) because you want to keep it pure and eventually climb it 'trad', whilst also altering the rock yourself by putting resin on it to create sequences.

Probably wouldn't worry too much about it, hardly the Dawn Wall is it 

I didn't realise it had happened on the Ace even...

[wasbeen]

I wonder what the initial UKB reaction to Franco bolting one of McHaffie's trad projects would be, whatever the circumstances. I am guessing it would not be whole hearted support.

It seems that minds were made up based on the knotted rope, based on a few snippets of hearsay. Then made a load of assumptions on other aspects based partly on reputation.

In reality, decisions are made based on balance. Take the broken hold that was refilled. Is it really that unreasonable on a mined quarry face, where there is precedent, to preserve what is clearly a great route if the alternative is a bit meh? It is not a black and white decision.

My guess is there are a significant proportion who are generally supportive of Franco or at least not anywhere near as outraged as this thread might suggest.

If I was him. I would be pretty miffed that what is clearly a significant achievement has been unfairly tarnished.

[Kingy]

If the issue of breaking holds is reflected upon for a moment, once a hold breaks bigger/ smaller, from that moment on, this is the 'new normal'. Any subsequent attempt to 'put it back how it was' is in effect 'creating a new sequence', ie. one that is different to the new configuration of holds now on the wall. The mere fact that it used to be like that could be argued to be irrelevant

[northern yob]

Franco I brought up your digression’s on here after seeing Caffs tweet, and speaking to a few people, I brought it up because like you climbing means a lot to me. Not because my “mate asked me to”…. When I said I was gonna call it out because it sounded fishy and was a shit thing to do he said I should go easy on you!!

As much as playing the victim might seem like a good angle right now, I’d be careful who you are blaming as the bad guy.

I made a point of making no accusations (at least that’s what I thought) I outlined what I saw to be some basic facts and potential scenarios, and you rightly came on here and cleared up what went on.

Theres not really been any kind of pile on, there have been a lot of questions which we all had because you weren’t very clear about what you had done.

It was very clear that what you had done was very far from a normal ascent of a sport route, to act surprised that people would have any questions is pretty naive.

If you are as genuinely surprised as you are making out that people might have a problem or disagree with the knotted rope and the filling in of holds to force a sequence. You are at best very naive, I would suggest you knew what was coming and that’s why you weren’t upfront with all the info so maybe stop playing the victim and own it. I don’t find the “I can’t see anything wrong with it “defence very convincing.

In the spirit of Ken’s spirit which does seem to have possessed me, I’m against fixing broken routes or boulders, we are supposed to be stepping up to the questions nature presents not manipulating them….sport climbing is the only scenario for me where glue should be used, and only when establishing routes after that let nature take its course….

You might argue you were establishing a new sport route, which you were but I think that forcing sequences is absolute bollox and just as bad as chipping and can only lead to climbing and climbers losing out in the long run.

Good luck on the dawn wall, I think it’s 20yrs ago this season that I was swinging around up there with Leo looking to find a way through, you should be in a good position to talk about the grade of your new “thing” after a month or so swinging around up there.

[Bradders]

Actually, I've no issues with Franco personally. How could I, I've never met him.
His relentless self promotion, whack ethics and bollocks grading I do find annoying though.
He's clearly a very talented, if a little misguided climber. I guess being brought up in the era of Ron, Jerry, Ben, Johnny and the rest of the 80's climbers had somewhat coloured my view on what to expect from those pushing the envelope.

Self promotion bothers you and yet these are the people you hold up as alternatives?!

If it's a later repair, to maintain an established and nationally significant route then I don't have too much issue with it. The jug on The Ace 8B springs to mind. But I think this is quite different from altering the rock on a project, purely to force or create moves.

Is this route not nationally significant? It being new as opposed to done years ago doesn't diminish the fact that this is the hardest slab in the UK and likely one of the hardest routes full stop. It's a fine line up an impressive wall in an atmospheric place. And you could therefore say that maintaining its sequence is reasonable if the level of its significance is your justification for doing so.

If the issue of breaking holds is reflected upon for a moment, once a hold breaks bigger/ smaller, from that moment on, this is the 'new normal'. Any subsequent attempt to 'put it back how it was' is in effect 'creating a new sequence', ie. one that is different to the new configuration of holds now on the wall. The mere fact that it used to be like that could be argued to be irrelevant

This is a good point though. I'm sure I remember someone suitably qualified saying they thought The Ace would still have been possible without the hold being glued back on, for example.

[mrjonathanr]

I wonder what the initial UKB reaction to Franco bolting one of McHaffie's trad projects would be, whatever the circumstances. I am guessing it would not be whole hearted support.

They’d probably want to reflect on whether Caff had claimed it as a sport route first.

[wasbeen]

I wonder what the initial UKB reaction to Franco bolting one of McHaffie's trad projects would be, whatever the circumstances. I am guessing it would not be whole hearted support.

They’d probably want to reflect on whether Caff had claimed it as a sport route first.

Agreed

[Doylo]

So he claimed one of the hardest sport routes in the country and then cried when someone bolted it. He’s either a genius or a MadMan. I’d take a stab at a 50:50 ratio. 

[mrjonathanr]

I wonder what the initial UKB reaction to Franco bolting one of McHaffie's trad projects would be, whatever the circumstances. I am guessing it would not be whole hearted support.

They’d probably want to reflect on whether Caff had claimed it as a sport route first.

Agreed

And conclude.... that this is Schrödinger's slate, where a route may be in one of two states within a climber's mind, both sport route and trad project, its condition at any moment unknowable to the outside observer?

[Dexter]

Fixing holds aside I don't really see how using a knotted rope instead of bolts is such a big issue to people. At this level of difficulty nobody is putting the draws in as they go anyway right? So by that logic you're already going to have done some faff to put them all in in the first place. How is adding a rope to one of the draws considered such an additional effort that it would hinder someone else trying it?
As to the grade it will get ironed out as and when it gets repeated the same as any other route. Why even bother arguing over it.

[petejh]

Fixing holds aside I don't really see how using a knotted rope instead of bolts is such a big issue to people. At this level of difficulty nobody is putting the draws in as they go anyway right? So by that logic you're already going to have done some faff to put them all in in the first place. How is adding a rope to one of the draws considered such an additional effort that it would hinder someone else trying it?

This misunderstands the issue. Which is this:

First ascent claimed of a route. Route claimed with a sport grade because the climber couldn't climb it as a trad route (this is not said as any sort jibe it's said as statement of fact, nothing wrong with sport). No bolts placed, which is odd, a dangly rope used instead of bolts.

OK.. weird, but no big deal. It's a really poor style but the world is imperfect.. It's lazy - just make the effort to put the bolts in. It's unhelpful to other climbers who want to try it - bolt-to-bolting from the ground versus bringing extra rope and faffing arranging hanging dangleberries which just isn't necessary or desirable. It sets a very bad precedent for other new routers -  if this style is extended to trad (and why wouldn't it be?) it makes an already contrived and vulnerable set of ethical guidelines even harder to justify as all hard trad can get done in the next week in this batshit dangly rope style by attention-hungry individuals. Also loads more 'sport' routes could be put up really quickly using dangleberries without needing to do the hard bit of bolting - very tempting to us new routers.. but these routes would be a total pig for future climbers to enjoy without bolts.

But no biggie. The line will probably just end up getting bolted because it's been claimed as a new sport route by the first ascensionist, protected by in-situ protection positioned wherever the climber wants at the climber's discretion as opposed to protection dictated by the rock.
And this is exactly what happened, because it had to happen Unless the last 40 years of evolution of the ethics guiding the use of fixed gear during new route development gets thrown out the window because one attention-hungry individual wants the rest of the world to bend to his vision of how climbing should be.

But wait there's more!

Climber does not want their sport route bolted. And cries foul when it is, playing the victim role. Because climber is ALSO laying claim to the route as a trad project. Climber says they're also laying claim to other nearby unclimbed routes as trad projects, but intends to climb them as sport routes in new flawed dangly rope style and claim them as new sport routes in the interim.

This is the issue people have problems with - this is a totally new style of developing new routes, that appears at its core to involve a huge dose of entitlement and ownership extending beyond the point in time at which you finish a new route and it gets presented to the rest of the community for others to experience.

This is wanting the hit of achievement, attention, publicity or whatever, for doing a good new route which you needed to use fixed protection because doing it trad was too hard (no shame in that); but then trying to ethically cordon off the route as a trad project so that every other climber who'd like to try this sport climb has to abide by this individual's awful retrograde style of arranging fixed protection. Even though the first ascensionist failed to climb it as trad and there appears no likelihood on the horizon of it happening.

There's no outrage required here and I don't see much, because it's just obviously so much a load of bollocks that it won't get accepted by other climbers. I do think it's selfish, disrespectful to other climbers and disrespectful to the evolved traditions and ethics of new route development which is the lifeblood of climbing. * Not that ethics and traditions can't change they can and do, but usually in a progressively better style not backwards.   

The hold repairs etc. are a sideshow. Hold repair not ideal but far less of a bollocks than the above.   

[Kingy]

Totally agree with the above, by bringing a new sport route into the world, this comes with a certain responsibility on the first ascentionist to bolt it for others to attempt/ enjoy. Either that or keep it as a trad project

[Dexter]

So I get the idea of not wanting to set the precedent of doing this everywhere but my point is that it's not actually that much more effort in this instance to set up a rope than bolt it. There's already presumably bolts in meltdown to bolt to bolt set everything up and anyone who's climbing 9a+ (or whatever grade it is) is going to be prepared with necessary gear etc anyway.

[Kingy]

anyone who's climbing 9a+ (or whatever grade it is) is going to be prepared with necessary gear etc anyway.

Just wondered if you climbed routes? Anyone sport climbing regularly will probably appreciate that a rucksack with a 70m rope, 12 quickdraws, water, lunch, harness, clothing, chalkbag, clipstick etc is more than heavy enough plus the fact that you need a big rucksack for anything extra that most people don't own. To set up a hanging rope you need 2 ropes and extra slings, carabiners plus the ability/ willingness to set up anchors and faff about tieing knotted ropes. The whole thing is enough to put anybody off sport climbing. We need more recruits, not less! 

[Dexter]

anyone who's climbing 9a+ (or whatever grade it is) is going to be prepared with necessary gear etc anyway.

Just wondered if you climbed routes? Anyone sport climbing regularly will probably appreciate that a rucksack with a 70m rope, 12 quickdraws, water, lunch, harness, clothing, chalkbag, clipstick etc is more than heavy enough plus the fact that you need a big rucksack for anything extra that most people don't own. To set up a hanging rope you need 2 ropes and extra slings, carabiners plus the ability/ willingness to set up anchors and faff about tieing knotted ropes. The whole thing is enough to put anybody off sport climbing. We need more recruits, not less! 

I do climb routes yes. Surely someone operating at the 9a level can bring an extra 10-15m length of static rope and a sling or two. And it presumably doesn't take long to set the rope up in the scheme of bolt to bolt setting up the draws anyway. I'd be interested to know from Franco how long the setup took and how much extra effort was involved. 

[Kingy]

OK. I don't think the ability to climb 9a has anything to do with whether somebody should be expected to have to deal with a knotted rope. If we are saying this is to become accepted practice for some sport climbs, why not 8a or 7a climbers for that matter?

I strongly believe that sport climbing is meant to be for enjoyment of the movement over rock without too much in the way of equipment or forward planning. That's why the ethics/ conventions re bolting that Pete set out above have developed over time.

[stone]

If it had been top roped and publicised as a top rope problem and an open trad project, would any of you have had a problem with that?

Would you have felt the same about it then being promptly bolted by someone else?

(I'm asking as someone who likes sport climbing, doesn't trad climb, would respect a cutting edge feat of top rope climbing and also doesn't see much a problem with knotted ropes on slabs)