[Kingy]

Yes, naming of projects without grading them is OK (or a working title). Depends on which country as to whether the bolter gets to name it or the FA. In the UK, its the latter, in France the former.

IMO, routes should not be graded until they are climbed. That is a long standing precedent since the early days of climbing. Speculation on the grade is one thing but to grade it in a topo or database before being climbed is not the right way to go. The FA gets to grade the climb.

Usually on Spanish topos, 'P' or project or '?' is used on the topo with some speculation, if any, on what likely ballpark grade it might be appearing in some accompanying note.

Holds appear on routes from time to time without being chipped. Sometimes existing holds 'break bigger' e,g, the pocket for your RH on Launch Control at Kilnsey used to be a tight 3 finger slot (in 2019 when I did it) but has since broken to make a better, full hand pocket. No chipping involved.

[northern yob]

Holds appear on routes from time to time without being chipped. Sometimes existing holds 'break bigger' e,g, the pocket for your RH on Launch Control at Kilnsey used to be a tight 3 finger slot (in 2019 when I did it) but has since broken to make a better, full hand pocket. No chipping involved.

Absolutely agree. I think the relevant questions are

Is it chipped?

If so, who chipped it?

Did Franco use it?

If it’s not chipped is it ok to fill it in and force a sequence?

[ali k]

I think the relevant questions are

Is it chipped?

If so, who chipped it?

Did Franco use it?

If it’s not chipped is it ok to fill it in and force a sequence?

The answers to which will only be revealed via Franco’s substack page 

[ferret]

Personally I think the knotted rope issue is a storm in a tea cup.
I always thought the point of leading a sport route was that it takes out any potential for getting some accidental assistance from the rope (except for checking a swing in something steep). In order to lead something you then had to place/clip making it in most cases physically harder too. The knotted rope doesn't charge either of those things.
Obviously with trad you are taking up the challenge of only the protection the rock allows you and the inherent danger/commitment that goes with it.
I wouldn't be against the idea of having a knotted rope sport route in area with no bolt ethic that are physically possible but seemingly unfeasible to lead due to the difficulty and lack of protection. I'd caveat this by saying on delicate rock that it should be left for future generations and not risk damaging it.
It also strikes me that slate bolting is historically arbitrary. A mix of fully bolted sport routes, mixed routes and trad routes that sometimes rely solely on runout bolt protection. Add in questionable homemade bolts and bolts placed deliberately after the crux to engineer the danger. Francos approach doesn't seem that odd when you look at the scatter gun approach to bolting in the area.
Just to clarify I'm pretty neutral on Franco on the one hand I strongly disagree on his claims on the prow and the young, on the other he has achieved some incredibly impressive ascents. I always thought some of the charm of British climbing came from its strong/controversial characters and its non standard approach to ethics and protection.

[Fiend]

It would be interesting to see a photo of what went on. This comment on UKC 'ask him if he's plan on leaving his spiders web art installation of fixed ropes up permanently?' suggests it's a lot more than just a single rope with some knots in it akin to a bolt extension.

My view is it isn't a route yet. Unless he places or arranges bolts to be placed asap in the positions he used, he's done a decent ascent equivalent to a clean top-rope. It would be very easy for him to now drill them in more awkward positions, whether intentionally or not. As it stands it lacks the permanence to be repeatable, it will be noted in the line's history, but not the FA.

There may some precedents around the world but they're all notably isolated incidents where the general consensus has been, as Pete put it, that it would soon be a shitshow if we carried on similarly.

Taking a step back, I do think that to claim a sport route, it has to exist as such. Sport climbing is defined by the presence of bolts. If you want to establish sport climbs then you have to grapple with the ethical issues of drilling.

You're ruling essentially that you can't have your ethical hat and eat it.

Haven't we established that there is going to be disappointingly little hat consumption of any form on the go?? 

[Bradders]

Personally I think the knotted rope issue is a storm in a tea cup.
I always thought the point of leading a sport route was that it takes out any potential for getting some accidental assistance from the rope (except for checking a swing in something steep). In order to lead something you then had to place/clip making it in most cases physically harder too. The knotted rope doesn't charge either of those things.
Obviously with trad you are taking up the challenge of only the protection the rock allows you and the inherent danger/commitment that goes with it.
I wouldn't be against the idea of having a knotted rope sport route in area with no bolt ethic that are physically possible but seemingly unfeasible to lead due to the difficulty and lack of protection. I'd caveat this by saying on delicate rock that it should be left for future generations and not risk damaging it.
It also strikes me that slate bolting is historically arbitrary. A mix of fully bolted sport routes, mixed routes and trad routes that sometimes rely solely on runout bolt protection. Add in questionable homemade bolts and bolts placed deliberately after the crux to engineer the danger. Francos approach doesn't seem that odd when you look at the scatter gun approach to bolting in the area.

I agree, I think it's excellent news and I'm looking forward to starting my gritstone sport climbing career using this method!

[User deactivated.]

Personally I think the knotted rope issue is a storm in a tea cup.
I always thought the point of leading a sport route was that it takes out any potential for getting some accidental assistance from the rope (except for checking a swing in something steep). In order to lead something you then had to place/clip making it in most cases physically harder too. The knotted rope doesn't charge either of those things.
Obviously with trad you are taking up the challenge of only the protection the rock allows you and the inherent danger/commitment that goes with it.
I wouldn't be against the idea of having a knotted rope sport route in area with no bolt ethic that are physically possible but seemingly unfeasible to lead due to the difficulty and lack of protection. I'd caveat this by saying on delicate rock that it should be left for future generations and not risk damaging it.
It also strikes me that slate bolting is historically arbitrary. A mix of fully bolted sport routes, mixed routes and trad routes that sometimes rely solely on runout bolt protection. Add in questionable homemade bolts and bolts placed deliberately after the crux to engineer the danger. Francos approach doesn't seem that odd when you look at the scatter gun approach to bolting in the area.

I agree, I think it's excellent news and I'm looking forward to starting my gritstone sport climbing career using this method!

Clipping up Reservoir Dogs seems like a great idea, are you free this weekend? 

[ferret]

Now your just being silly. It's an (old) existing route so clearly feasible and has broken several times so clearly fragile.
I was talking about something that's a thin 9a or whatever with no gear and hasn't been climbed and might possibly never be without some form of protection. The rules say you can't bolt it so you are left with top rope or Francorope which at least mostly removes gaining assistance from the rope.
Historically there's been the use of pre-clipped incredibly high side runners sometimes in multiple routes to solve situations like this. Guess I don't see a huge difference if you're giving it a short grade.

[mrjonathanr]

Have I got this right?  The route exists in a particular state which is presumably, beyond the ability of the climber to lead in that condition. Extra protection relying on a rope from above is added so that the climber can do it. It then gets claimed as if it were the route with the protection that he would have liked to be present, but wasn’t. That route does not exist. The too bold original still does.

[remus]

Have I got this right?  The route exists in a particular state which is presumably, beyond the ability of the climber to lead in that condition. Extra protection relying on a rope from above is added so that the climber can do it. It then gets claimed as if it were the route with the protection that he would have liked to be present, but wasn’t. That route does not exist. The too bold original still does.

I think this argument makes a lot of sense if you are thinking about it in a trad context, but not so much in a sport context. The difference between popping a knotted rope on it and drilling bolts in the same place as the knotted rope seems pretty strained when you look at the practicalities of how people will typically try and climb this thing (potentially abbing in from the top of the crag, likely spending some time on top rope first, maybe making use of a fixed line to work it etc.)

[User deactivated.]

Now your just being silly. It's an (old) existing route so clearly feasible and has broken several times so clearly fragile.
I was talking about something that's a thin 9a or whatever with no gear and hasn't been climbed and might possibly never be without some form of protection. The rules say you can't bolt it so you are left with top rope or Francorope which at least mostly removes gaining assistance from the rope.
Historically there's been the use of pre-clipped incredibly high side runners sometimes in multiple routes to solve situations like this. Guess I don't see a huge difference if you're giving it a short grade.

Was it not obvious enough? 

[northern yob]

Have I got this right?  The route exists in a particular state which is presumably, beyond the ability of the climber to lead in that condition. Extra protection relying on a rope from above is added so that the climber can do it. It then gets claimed as if it were the route with the protection that he would have liked to be present, but wasn’t. That route does not exist. The too bold original still does.

I think this argument makes a lot of sense if you are thinking about it in a trad context, but not so much in a sport context. The difference between popping a knotted rope on it and drilling bolts in the same place as the knotted rope seems pretty strained when you look at the practicalities of how people will typically try and climb this thing (potentially abbing in from the top of the crag, likely spending some time on top rope first, maybe making use of a fixed line to work it etc.)

Exactly…. Go down there get on any route of your choice and report back as to if it feels more like a sport route or a trad route!

As Adam said earlier this place is a long way from a sport crag.

[ferret]

Was it not obvious enough? 

Surely you know the internet has an algorithm that removes all traces of irony, satire and sarcasm?
I do like your idea of the satirical though.  The historical ending to this saga should involve Franco removing whatever he filled the hold with and replacing it with a brass mold of the original rock alongside a small painting of Caff dressed as a quarryman before retreating into life as an obscure artist that involves some form of public nudity thus completing the cycle of Welsh climbing controversy

[User deactivated.]

Was it not obvious enough? 

Surely you know the internet has an algorithm that removes all traces of irony, satire and sarcasm?
I do like your idea of the satirical though.  The historical ending to this saga should involve Franco removing whatever he filled the hold with and replacing it with a brass mold of the original rock alongside a small painting of Caff dressed as a quarryman before retreating into life as an obscure artist that involves some form of public nudity thus completing the cycle of Welsh climbing controversy

Good story, but needs more 3D printed holds and Lattice training plans. 7/10.

[SA Chris]

Plus a picture of a willy.

[andy moles]

Exactly…. Go down there get on any route of your choice and report back as to if it feels more like a sport route or a trad route!

As Adam said earlier this place is a long way from a sport crag.

Times have a-changed in the Big Hole. Twll Mawr has loads of normally bolted, standard sport routes these days.

[Paul B]

On that particular face?

The sport routes I've done down there certainly weren't.

[andy moles]

On that particular face?

The sport routes I've done down there certainly weren't.

I'm not sure about that particular face. I haven't done Rock Bottom Line, but it's of the same era as the other modern fully bolted routes, so I suspect that one.

But nearly all the others have trad grades, so are not a like for like comparison for Dewin Stone, which has been given a sport grade.

I don't think the argument 'this is not a sport crag' holds any water when there are lots of routes nearby that are indisputably sport.

It's a hybrid crag, with some sport and some partly bolted trad, like most of the slate.

[Paul B]

It's a hybrid crag, with some sport and some partly bolted trad, like most of the slate.

Isn't that what's being implied, in that it's far from your typical sport venue?

[spidermonkey09]

Loads of sport venues have trad routes though. Eg, Kilnsey. I thought it was being implied this was somehow a special crag where even all the "sport" routes were really run out/needed gear, which isn't the case. It's not Taipan, where you need a bit of bravery and extra gear on all the routes. It's a crag where weird slate "trad" routes and perfectly well bolted sport routes live together. If you went with a typical sport rack I think you'd have a typical sport day.

[northern yob]

Fuck it then…. Knotted ropes it is! It’s not Taipan no! It’s the quarryman face.

Everyone is free to do whatever they like, personally I hate rules. However there are parameters within climbing that the game is played within. We all play by different rules ultimately.

You might be happy with your ascent with a 20ft daisy chain at the bottom of the crag and a 50ft runout at the top!

I think the two things are in complete contradiction of each other and it just sets a precedent for people to do what ever they fancy.

And those aren’t the rules of the game I play. I’m happy to concede climbing is moving on and obviously leaving me behind and this is ok these days.

[andy moles]

It's a hybrid crag, with some sport and some partly bolted trad, like most of the slate.

Isn't that what's being implied, in that it's far from your typical sport venue?

Possibly, but it was implied that this somehow makes the knotted rope thing less excusable than if it was at a more conventional sport crag. Which I don't personally think is a factor at all. It's been claimed as a sport route with a sport grade at a venue that already has a bunch of established sport routes.

I'm not sure how I've ended up in a position of defending the ascent so much - I don't really care if posterity demands Franco has to lead it again with the bolts in (as token and pointless as that seems) and I have no interest in defending anyone's right to claim routes this way in future. I just find some of the arguments against it nonsensical.

[andy moles]

I’m happy to concede climbing is moving on and obviously leaving me behind and this is ok these days.

To be fair not a single person on this thread has actually approved of the knotted rope. I think we all agree that it's shit practice.

I would definitely harden my position on recognising ascents if it became more than an anomaly.

Now, back to that filled-in hold... 

[northern yob]

It’s all bollocks any way isn’t it. As far as the knotted rope goes my final salvo is that it has probably been summed up best by Pete somewhere above when he said that if everyone did it like this it would be shit, and that is ultimately why for the last 30yrs or so it’s generally been accepted that it’s not the done thing…..

[steveri]

The knotted rope is less faff than drilling, but more faff for everyone else and less repeatable. Your knots positions are different to my knot positions (actually not mine, it’s not a Font 5).

A bit like those warehouse rackings you can adjust the height of the shelf/bolts to where you want them. Or that time I placed the same cam 3 times shuffling upwards.

Long live rules, long live pushing the rules.