[andy moles]

I think in part it seems absurd because if you've got a hanging rope there why not just clip into it "properly" (with a shunt or whatever) and just TR the thing? Perhaps it just brings home the absurdity of climbing just a little too much to be comfortable.

I think there is some truth to this 

[Bonjoy]

Why all the false equivalences talking about grit routes? We (generally, with some weird exceptions) don't allow bolting or sport climbing on grit, so of course a hanging rope clip up would not be legit.

On slate we allow sport climbs and we do insist on leading. This fits with those stylistic rules, but instead of clipping drilled metal he's clipped fixed loops. The Cry Freedom example isn't equivalent because we don't consider top roping to be legit style on limestone sport routes.

I don't recall anyone ever debating the point. I think it's a reasonable proposition to say that 'no bolts on grit' is principally about protecting the rock. In which case if someone wants to claim a sport route, without placing bolts, why shouldn't they?
 
Or maybe we just don't break the entire paradigm of UK climbing in order to accommodate one person's perverse addiction to controversy.

[Stabbsy]

If Franco went back and put bolts in exactly where the knotted loops were in his static, would people be less bothered about the validity of the ascent? If he'd claimed a lead of Indian Face [insert other bold trad route of choice here] then fair enough, but it's on a wall that's already bolted so I'm assuming there's no reason he can't place bolts wherever (disclaimer - I don't know the wall so unclear if there are existing trad routes to consider, etc.). If the real reason for not bolting it is that he wants to able to say he's never placed a bolt then that strikes me as a bit daft, but I'm really struggling to be questioning the ascent's validity.

If it was someone other than Franco, would the conversation be going the same way or would we be giving someone else a bit more leeway?

Todd Skinner also did a new route at Hueco like this in the early 90s - tensioned a knotted static line down the route with trad gear (I think some tube chocks/Big Bros in a couple of huecos) and clipped the drawers tied to the static line - I think because there was a ban on bolting. Don't know if it was bolted/re-led later.

Route was called Boys Town - it's on Moving Over Stone 2, towards the end. Can't find any reference to it on Mountain Project, so might have been renamed or might be that no-one sport climbs at Hueco now?

[SA Chris]

Or might have been highballed and renamed!

[andy moles]

If it was someone other than Franco, would the conversation be going the same way or would we be giving someone else a bit more leeway?

To be fair I think this would have raised eyebrows and been called out by some whoever did it, given its high publicity (and status as a cutting edge 'slab' climb). It's pretty odd.

[petejh]

If Franco went back and put bolts in exactly where the knotted loops were in his static, would people be less bothered about the validity of the ascent?

It's obviously a legit ascent of the moves. He's just done it in a style that's so poor and out of the ordinary when it was completely unnecessary - the wall's already covered in bolts!  .

It's a classic 'if everyone else did it like that, climbing would be shit, that's why they don't do it like that'.

[abarro81]

As Bonjoy alluded to, is it not as much about the validity of the route in its current form as the validity of the ascent? If I do a new grit prow in this style can I give it a name and a sport grade? Most would say no I suspect, because it isn't really a sport route. What's the difference here? In the same sense is this really, currently, a sport route? If not, does it make sense to give it a name and a grade?

Interestingly boulder/route hybrids that can be done on bolts/gear or above pads are both boulder problems and routes in many ways, so maybe a route can be a sport route and a trad route at the same time? Schroedinger's route? It doesn't feel like that makes sense though

It's a classic 'if everyone else did it like that, climbing would be shit, that's why they don't do it like that'.

I like this way of summing it up!

[ali k]

If it was someone other than Franco, would the conversation be going the same way or would we be giving someone else a bit more leeway?

If it was someone other than Franco they'd have probably been honest about clipping a knotted rope from the start and this would have all just been a niche discussion about a weird hybrid way someone had chosen to climb a variation on Meltdown.
Either he genuinely thinks this is a completely legit way to climb something so he didn't think it was worth mentioning before it was written up on UKC as a bona fide uncontroversial FA, or he knew it would cast doubt on the legitimacy and take away from his achievement so chose to keep it hidden. All a bit odd!

[abarro81]

didn't think it was worth mentioning

This doesn't seem particularly credible

[Stabbsy]

If I do a new grit prow in this style can I give it a name and a sport grade? Most would say no I suspect, because it isn't really a sport route. What's the difference here? In the same sense is this really, currently, a sport route? If not, does it make sense to give it a name and a grade?

As Will mentioned, I don't think the grit route comparison is a great one. A big part of the grit "experience" is the boldness element determined by the rock. There's nothing to stop you claiming whatever you liked but it's further out of line with the prevailing ethics and so you might as well top rope it.

With this route it all seems a bit daft/pointless as there's no reason not to bolt it. I can't understand the logic that led to where we are, but I wouldn't call into question the validity of the route. If someone did similar on a limestone sport crag with no bolting bans, etc., I'd question their sanity/thought processes, but I wouldn't question the route's existence.

As an aside, back in the day I used to spend a lot of time at Red Wall in Trowbarrow. We considered this approach for "leading" the routes there for training purposes, because top-roping was getting a bit too easy. I'd never have claimed trad ascents of the routes, but I could see value in doing it to get a bit more mileage out of an overused bit of rock.

If it was someone other than Franco, would the conversation be going the same way or would we be giving someone else a bit more leeway?

If it was someone other than Franco they'd have probably been honest about clipping a knotted rope from the start and this would have all just been a niche discussion about a weird hybrid way someone had chosen to climb a variation on Meltdown.
Either he genuinely thinks this is a completely legit way to climb something so he didn't think it was worth mentioning before it was written up on UKC as a bona fide uncontroversial FA, or he knew it would cast doubt on the legitimacy and take away from his achievement so chose to keep it hidden. All a bit odd!

Yeah, probably agree with this. My natural thought when I see anything with Franco's name attached is "what's he done weird this time?". I just wondered whether that should be my nature reaction given how arbitrary a sport we operate in.

[Fiend]

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but to summarise, is the exciting news that someone has now bolted, and done the first ascent of the "Dewin Stone" project??

[remus]

I think he should smash 40 bolts in it (preferably close enough that the quickdraws overlap), a great improvement in style imo.

More seriously, he's been honest about the style so I'm struggling to see the issue. For fairly arbitrary reasons we've settled on the idea that you have to lead something for it to 'count', and likewise we've decided that abseiling down and putting bolts wherever you like to make the lead safe is an acceptable thing. Replacing those bolts with a knotted rope seems a relatively small step. I wonder if anyone who's climbed the meltdown has extended the draws to make them easier to clip? Let's hope they didn't extend them too far.

[andy moles]

is it not as much about the validity of the route in its current form as the validity of the ascent?

I'm trying to reconcile this, the idea that it was a legitimate ascent but that it is not a legitimate route in its current state. I guess it's not that different to the status of a route that has had its bolts removed. It might still go in the guidebook, but in truncated form or with a warning.

Alternatively Franco's pioneered an approach where routes don't have to have been climbed in any way to be named and written up:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/twll_mawr-636/the_dewin_wall_trad-682594

[Paul B]

...I think this is stretching the usefulness....

...A grit route is not a good comparison...

Fair enough. I'm not convinced there's much difference between doing that on the Rainbow or a small lump of grit but each to their own. I guess Barrows said it better with:

I think in part it seems absurd because if you've got a hanging rope there why not just clip into it "properly" (with a shunt or whatever) and just TR the thing? Perhaps it just brings home the absurdity of climbing just a little too much to be comfortable.

More seriously, he's been honest about the style so I'm struggling to see the issue.

It was, and still is missing from the original UKC article that a knotted rope was used for pro. That's something pretty easy to rectify rather than letting it play out in the comments section.

[edshakey]

More seriously, he's been honest about the style so I'm struggling to see the issue.

It was, and still is missing from the original UKC article that a knotted rope was used for pro. That's something pretty easy to rectify rather than letting it play out in the comments section.

He discussed it in the video interview he did with UKC, and he didn't write the article. Sounds like an issue with UKC not Franco?

[Paul B]

Perhaps my view is coloured by the Prow nonsense, but no, I'd suggest if someone is bringing it up in the comments I'd expect the subject of an article to request important points are included as an amendment (I'd also expect UKC to pick that up too).

(I also can't see it on the long Insta post?)

Anyway, enough grumpiness from me. I'm sure the climbing is very impressive.

[webbo]

I’m surprised Franco has not posted on here to clarify things.

[Nemo]

I think the main impact of not bolting it, is that it stops good climbers from elsewhere coming and doing it easily, as there isn't actually a route to come and try and noone else is interested in this kind of silliness.
 
Which no doubt means it will go into the mysterious, esoteric, controversial pile of daft UK routes of which there's far too many already.  Unless someone just goes and bolts it and does a proper ascent.

[i_a_coops]

Can't remember the source of this (maybe Dawes' book?) but I think the FA of Windows of Perception may have been done with a knotted rope, and the bolt placed where the knot was afterwards - so there is some precedent on slate, at least with the bolts actually being placed afterwards.

I think having a knotted rope to clip makes the 'E10' designer danger run out finish seem much more contrived though - why not have another knotted rope on that section?!

If it's genuinely a better trad route than Meltdown is a sport route then I I guess Franco should chop the bolts on Meltdown and cause some real controversy    

[Fiend]

I think it's quite a nice nod to history that The Meltdown had a name and was well-known as a notorious project before it was climbed, and so The Dewin Stone can also be named and well-known as a project, whether it eventually gets done as a sport route or a trad route.

[Kingy]

I don't the Dewin Stone will ever be done as a trad route cos that would mean chopping a fair number of the bolts on the Meltdown. Can't see that happening

[Hoseyb]

A better example of precedent would be al Evans route in Vivian quarry. Done originally with a knotted rope instead of bolts. Never got bolted. Never got climbed. Got written up as if it was originally trad ( I learnt the rest researching the ground up guide).
Now returned to nature, and a fair few shrubs

[stone]

I was wondering whether this might have (intentionally?) been a bit like that Marcel Douchamp Fountain artwork.

Basically prompting people to wonder as to what climbing means to them or whatever. It sort of works in doing that I guess.

[duncan]

When I climbed the direct start to Tour de France at Avon I protected the middle pitch with a knot in the abseil rope, a spur-of-the-moment decision which I'd never done before or since. It was a fortunate choice as I took a 60 footer onto it (if the Avon guidebook is to be believed, it didn't seem quite that far). I went back and placed a peg roughly where the knot had been. Which is what Franco should do in my view.

[JamieG]

I was wondering whether this might have (intentionally?) been a bit like that Marcel Douchamp Fountain artwork.

Basically prompting people to wonder as to what climbing means to them or whatever. It sort of works in doing that I guess.

That analogy might be more prescient than you think stone!

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2023/oct/15/conceptualist-art-fountain-is-fake-say-historians-marcel-duchamp