[Wellsy]

I think people probably do yeah

[yetix]

Everyone's journey in climbing is their own... But I agree if it was me it would feel like this was a project still. But if Franco is content with what he's done and is open about what he's done that's fine too

[SA Chris]

I'm so far off the mark that my opinons don't really matter, but I personally think it's a bit shit, and verging on hypocrisy. Happy to use bolts that someone else has placed, but reluctant to place your own? Shame, as it puts a bit of a tarnish on what looks like a phenomenal piece of climbing.

[petejh]

This is great. As a keen new route developer I'm never going to bother putting bolts in a new route again - dropping a temporary knotted rope is way easier! Imagine all the time and physical effort new routers have wasted bolting when they could have not bothered and done the routes this way. Low impact too. Get the tick, move on, fuck anyone else's experience.

[Paul B]

I’ve held off on this because I sound like a miserable old twat, it’s becoming more apparent to me that I’m turning into Ken Wilson, but do people really think this is ok…?

I'm also a miserable twat, but no, I'm the same as you. From my understanding the detail of the knotted rope was also omitted from the UKC article which seems somewhat ...incomplete?

[andy moles]

I'm not sure why clipping a knotted rope instead of bolts would invalidate the ascent. Why's it any different to having used removable bolts, in terms of the mechanics of the lead?

But agree it's a weird thing to do. If it was actually to be done on trad gear only (which seems fanciful as no one but Franco is even notionally interested in semi-soloing something like this), that will mean either removing or ignoring the existing bolts on Meltdown anyway.

Then again, who cares. It's not like he's done a new 7a at a good crag and left it half unequipped. This route is totally niche. For the few people who will want to try it, hanging a knotted rope is hardly a make-or-break inconvenience.

My guess? It's so that Franco can say he's never placed a bolt, in the same vein as avoiding climbing any 8s before climbing a 9. Amiright? 

[Will Hunt]

In my opinion it's legit but really lazy not to put the bolts in where the knots were, even if that's done after the fact. Is it likely to ever get the mooted trad ascent? Probably not.
Feels a bit like Franco was scraping the barrel for how to make this one in any way controversial. Get creative, Franco! You could easily have gone out at night, chipped it, complained that someone had chipped it, filled them back in, done a shit under the route, been really cross about someone shitting under your route, hung a big 30m high banner with a glamour photo of yourself and the words "Franco's project do not touch or else" on it, stolen the banner, been really cross that the banner went missing. Seriously it's not hard.
I might set myself up as a pro-climber agency: Band of Turds.

[Johnny Brown]

WTF

So what on earth is going on with this? The whole knotted rope thing is bollocks, in my mind it’s basically not a route, what he’s done is a little better than a top rope ascent. If he’s not put the bolts in because he wants it to be a trad route, then it’s an unfinished project and doesn’t deserve a name and grade. If he’s gonna bolt it with bolts where the knots were it’s far from ideal, and in my eyes a legitimate ascent hasn’t occurred….. is this ok these days?

Hilarious isn't it? Franco, as usual, wanting to have his cake and eat it. I applaud him for not bolting it and don't want to encourage it, but unfortunately taking that stand does prevent you from claiming it as a sport route. To not mention this up front is totally misleading. There are plenty of times top climbers have claimed things as top rope problems and publicised them as such - a challenge for others to improve on - and sometimes their names have been retained and ascents remain worthy of recording. But rule one is be honest and open.

It's so that Franco can say he's never placed a bolt,

Yes, he's said that. And also lacks the competence, which given his experiments with glue I think we should keep him well away from the tools as long as possible.

I'm not sure why clipping a knotted rope instead of bolts would invalidate the ascent. Why's it any different to having used removable bolts, in terms of the mechanics of the lead?

Removable bolts require drilling holes obviously, which would remain in the same place for subsequent ascents. But fundamentally I don't think this style has any precedence for being considered legitimate, it's effectively a weird top-rope. The subterfuge would suggest he wanted it to gain some legitimacy before the beans were spilled.

[teestub]

Removable bolts require drilling holes obviously, which would remain in the same place for subsequent ascents. But fundamentally I don't think this style has any precedence for being considered legitimate, it's effectively a weird top-rope. The subterfuge would suggest he wanted it to gain some legitimacy before the beans were spilled.

This is the question I was going to ask, I couldn't think of any other examples of someone climbing something with a knotted rope as protection, would be happy for some examples from people who are saying it is legit. I guess if someone wanted to repeat it in a similar style they could also use a knotted rope to protect the top bit that Franco hasn't bolted too?!

[Will Hunt]

I guess if someone wanted to repeat it in a similar style they could also use a knotted rope to protect the top bit that Franco hasn't bolted too?!

They could indeed. Or they could add the bolts and any extras they wanted. Which is what happens normally with sport routes that have been badly bolted.

[T_B]

Quite a few Lakes FAs were done with pegs that were immediately removed. Similar in my view.

[stone]

Like others have said on here, is it much of a hassle to put a knotted rope down a slab though?

I'd image it would be no more hassle than putting the draws on a bolted route. It is not as though most/any ascentionists would be climbing up, placing-the-draws-in-one-free-push.

I guess the difference from top-roping is that you have to take a hand off to clip. I'm also impressed by some top-roping feats though (eg Zippy onsight-top-roping hard grit test-pieces back in the day and that guy who top-roped Cry-Freedom at Malham).

It all seems to me pretty harmless. I agree that initially not mentioning it in interviews etc adds an additional layer of zany-ness though!

In France they have the ethic that equipping a sport route confers the right to name it regardless of whether the equipper can climb it. I guess some French bolter could give that a go 

[andy moles]

Removable bolts require drilling holes obviously, which would remain in the same place for subsequent ascents. But fundamentally I don't think this style has any precedence for being considered legitimate, it's effectively a weird top-rope. The subterfuge would suggest he wanted it to gain some legitimacy before the beans were spilled.

I don't think it's right to call it a weird top-rope. He was still leading between clippable points with all the normal scope for falling etc, it's just that some of those clippable points were temporary instead of fixed.

Can't deny there's no precedent though, and if you take this to its logical conclusion it does become very silly - you could claim any new line as a 'sport route' in this way, without having to place a bolt.

I'm optimistic that it won't catch on...

[Paul B]

I don't think it's right to call it a weird top-rope. He was still leading between clippable points with all the normal scope for falling etc, it's just that some of those clippable points were temporary instead of fixed.

Why? It's exactly what some people do to TR self-belay on things. Didn't someone famously screw this up somewhere quite serious, letting the knotted rope swing out of reach?

[Bonjoy]

If this is a legitimate lead/FA then (unless I'm missing something fundamental) the same tactic applied to any bit of rock would also be a legitimate lead.
That's quite a lot of trad FAs that suddenly got a whole lot more doable at a stroke!

[andy moles]

I don't think it's right to call it a weird top-rope. He was still leading between clippable points with all the normal scope for falling etc, it's just that some of those clippable points were temporary instead of fixed.

Why?

I've already said why... it's a succession of pre-set clippable points for protection, much like a line of bolts. So in that sense, how is it any less of a 'lead' than a self-equipped sport line?

I'm not saying it isn't bullshit for other reasons, just that to me it's a weird lead rather than a weird top rope.

And there's something odd about saying 'this was not a legitimate ascent because you didn't equip it properly for other people'.

[jwi]

The second hardest route at a local crag was done exactly in this fashion. Lead by clipping loops on a knotted static rope. (The FA was some thirty years ago.) The reason was that the two developers of the crag could not agree on where the line went, and as there was only really room for one route on that piece of the crag, one of them just threw down a static and went on to "lead" it.

The route did not get bolts until after the other developer died in a climbing accident.

[Paul B]

I've already said why... it's a succession of pre-set clippable points for protection, much like a line of bolts. So in that sense, how is it any less of a 'lead' than a self-equipped sport line?

Which is used by others as a TR way of soloing; it's not leading, even if it looks akin. I 'did' a Hard Grit^TM route before leaving Sheffield but tied the GriGri off at the gear; it's totally arbitary and a TR ascent. If that was in a knotted loop it'd still have been a TR even if looked closer to leading.

[Ru]

Can't deny there's no precedent though, and

Todd Skinner also did a new route at Hueco like this in the early 90s - tensioned a knotted static line down the route with trad gear (I think some tube chocks/Big Bros in a couple of huecos) and clipped the draws tied to the static line - I think because there was a ban on bolting. Don't know if it was bolted/re-led later.

[Kingy]

I tend to agree that its not a valid sport ascent. As Stone said, Steve Roberts toproped Cry Freedom several times but was by his own admission scared to get on the lead. He still did the climb but by the ethical standards of the community, it was not a led ascent.

Slingshot, English 7b, at Froggatt was a toprope problem by Jerry Moffat in 1988 before bouldering mats were invented. I'm sure he could have contrived knotted protection if he wanted to for a 'lead' ascent. Now with several big pads, its a stout Font 7C+ to the ledge or E10 for the full route, Blind Vision.

[Tom de Gay]

If this is a legitimate lead/FA then (unless I'm missing something fundamental) the same tactic applied to any bit of rock would also be a legitimate lead.
That's quite a lot of trad FAs that suddenly got a whole lot more doable at a stroke!

The Southern Sandstone would be one of the least developed areas in the country. Dozens of unjustifiable solos finally made possible!

Regardless of if the ascent is legit: in general, climbing with a hanging rope makes for a poor quality experience.

[Will Hunt]

Why all the false equivalences talking about grit routes? We (generally, with some weird exceptions) don't allow bolting or sport climbing on grit, so of course a hanging rope clip up would not be legit.

On slate we allow sport climbs and we do insist on leading. This fits with those stylistic rules, but instead of clipping drilled metal he's clipped fixed loops. The Cry Freedom example isn't equivalent because we don't consider top roping to be legit style on limestone sport routes.

[petejh]

And there's something odd about saying 'this was not a legitimate ascent because you didn't equip it properly for other people'.

There is, but that's because climbing is plain odd when you start to analyse it.

It's obviously a legitimate climb of a piece of rock in the style that Franco climbed it. The problem is that it's a style virtually nobody who puts up new routes ever uses, almost without exception. And not because it hasn't been considered before.

Why I wonder do we not climb in this style and forget the part about putting bolts in new routes which aren't trad routes or top-rope routes? It would be all-round an easier, cheaper, quicker, less impactful way to do these routes.   
I think probably because it comes with a very strong whiff of being a bit selfish, self-centred, and deliberately unhelpful or exclusive to other climbers now that we have easy access to good drills and bolts and using them has become common practice. The logic that anyone can drop a knotted rope to provide temporary protection points if they want to climb this route applies to any route at the Tor, Malham, LPT etc. Trying to rig ropes to climb on those crags because there weren't any bolts in place would make it a lot less enjoyable and inclusive an activity.

[abarro81]

I think in part it seems absurd because if you've got a hanging rope there why not just clip into it "properly" (with a shunt or whatever) and just TR the thing? Perhaps it just brings home the absurdity of climbing just a little too much to be comfortable.

[andy moles]

I've already said why... it's a succession of pre-set clippable points for protection, much like a line of bolts. So in that sense, how is it any less of a 'lead' than a self-equipped sport line?

Which is used by others as a TR way of soloing; it's not leading, even if it looks akin. I 'did' a Hard Grit^TM route before leaving Sheffield but tied the GriGri off at the gear; it's totally arbitary and a TR ascent. If that was in a knotted loop it'd still have been a TR even if looked closer to leading.

I think this is stretching the usefulness of the term 'top-rope' to include something more different to what is conventionally meant by 'top-roping' than it is from what is conventionally meant by leading.

Yes, it's arbitrary, you can put a knot anywhere you like. But if you're equipping a sport line, exactly the same is true of a bolt. A grit route is not a good comparison.