[lukeyboy]

I’m surprised Franco has not posted on here to clarify things.

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was just to wind up UKB I imagine Franco has been enjoying this thread.

I think it's basically a valid ascent, as in he's done the climbing and the knotted tope is basically equivalent to bolts in terms of danger / difficulty of clipping. It is however unhelpful for any would be repeaters, as it leaves ambiguity as to where the line goes and adds logistics.

So he's climbed the route, but the route sort-of doesn't exist

P.s. I think the earlier post about this whole inspection of our ethics being uncomfortably nonsensical was spot on

[edshakey]

It is however unhelpful for any would be repeaters, as it leaves ambiguity as to where the line goes and adds logistics.

Any more ambiguous than a normal trad route?

[lukeyboy]

It is however unhelpful for any would be repeaters, as it leaves ambiguity as to where the line goes and adds logistics.

Any more ambiguous than a normal trad route?

I think in most cases. There's usually gear and/or a line to follow - granted, not always.

And it would be fine if it was an ambiguous trad route, the problem is that it is being put out there as a sport route.

[Fultonius]

Would someone nearby (Pete?) Just go and fucking bolt it already? Would clear things up a bit 

[mrjonathanr]

While I’m waiting for it to be bolted I may as well get the first ascent of that line left of Indian Face with this new knotted protection, before someone else drops a top rope down and claims the first ascent.

[wasbeen]

You have to admire Franco's ability to wind up.
 I don't even think it is particularly intentional.

He is selflessly putting his life in danger and opening himself up to ethical criticism in pursuit of the interesting and new.

He is the sport/trad/top-rope leader we need but don't deserve!

[ali k]

He discussed it in the video interview he did with UKC, and he didn't write the article. Sounds like an issue with UKC not Franco?

UKC can only go off the information they’re given though, and he wasn’t forthcoming. It looked like they mostly just copied and pasted from Franco’s Instagram account to write that news article, at which point nothing had been mentioned about a knotted rope. I haven’t followed it that closely or watched the video so I could be wrong, but wasn’t the video interview done several days after the article? By which time the knotted rope info had come to light so he had no option but to come clean.

Question is, would UKC have done a news article and reported it in the same way if Franco had been honest about the knotted rope before they published? I doubt it.

He’s setting a bad precedent IMO. Get your story out first and then straighten out the details afterwards. It was the same with the Prow, that Cornish slab, the Young etc.

[haydn jones]

What's the difference between extending a bolt and a knotted rope? None. I cant belive this thread is a thing nor that anyone thinks that this is anything to do with top roping.

However, I do think that its lazy not to put the bolts in but then I don't really understand the designer danger ethics of routes that are part bolted/part gear.

Anyway, felt like there was an overwhelming majority that think francos ascent is somehow non legit so wanted to add a differing opinion to that.

[highrepute]

How many knots were on this rope?

It sounds like it just protects the direct start to the meltdown so is kind of like, as Hayden says, extending a bolt to protect the start.

It doesn't seem that controversial to me that there is another badly bolted route on the slate.

[Fiend]

It's about 10m to the first bolt on The Meltdown?? Hardly the same as a 4' sling on that to make it easier to clip.

Now, just speculating here, going out on a limb, but I'm wondering if at any point during the weeks of working this project, anyone thought to ask someone from Llanberis / Llandudno / North Wales retro-Bolt Fund scene to stick a few bolts in?? I mean it's unlikely that anyone in such a climber-sparse area that's scarcely had a bolt placed in the last decade would be available or keen to help turn a mega-project into a route just like The Meltdown next to it, but it might have been worth a try....

[petejh]

Would someone nearby (Pete?) Just go and fucking bolt it already? Would clear things up a bit 

It is tempting but I probably wouldn't bolt something if I wasn't capable of climbing it, without first talking to the FA. I live 5 minutes away and have drill, attic full of bolt, and competence. What say you Franco, want to be a boring normal person or are you fully committed to being a zany attention-seeker?

I also think if someone bolted it they should have a say on renaming it. I'd call it Cutting the Gordian Knot.

[Bonjoy]

To be clear, I’m not suggesting the FA is invalid, just that the this is precedent setting and it’s worth considering what wider implication the application of this style has. Yes, I was being sarcastic in tone, because to me it seems to muddy the waters by adding further levels of arbitrariness to an already contrived sport, but I’m not calling ‘no FA’ on Franco. We can draw up some boring, complex and arbitrary rules, or just collectively agree this sort of thing is technically valid, but that it degrades the sport somewhat and we don’t want people to do it.
I do think it’s a shame that this will probably dissuade some potential repeaters, especially international ones. I think the best outcome would be that someone competent bolts the route. First they’d need to ascertain the exact clip positions (is there video for this?) given that this might have an impact on difficulty. However, I can see that there is a (eye-rollingly tiresome)controversy booby trap rigged to this action in Franco’s statement about wanting to do this as a trad route. For my money if I was the presiding judge on the ethics committee here I would rule that Franco get the FA but doesn’t get to veto or otherwise cry foul when  a thick skinned philanthropist does the decent thing. Obviously this doesn’t stop Franco doing the route on trad, he can take the hangers off for the ascent, then chop the bolts properly afterwards. I have one uneaten hat from a previous one of Franco’s bold claims regarding Dangermouse at Wimberry. Fortunately I have another one I can eat if he does this route on trad.

[northern yob]

This shit just gets better….. hats off to Franco he really does just seem to bring this shit on himself……

This is all second hand knowledge but my understanding of what has actually gone on. Hopefully he will/can come on and correct/justify stuff, but from where I’m sat it doesn’t look great….

Caff has bolted the start, which is good!! He one hanged it on day 2. Crux for caff is the meltdown still….

A hold appeared on the upper section before Franco did it…. Fuck knows if he used it….. Franco then got the glue out and repaired/filled it back in.

Caff still managed to use it as a foot on his go….

Franco then went back and filled it in even more….

Fuck knows what’s going on but the fact he’s not openly mentioned this hold which he did or didn’t use and the fact he filled it in doesn’t cover him in glory.

I love a bit of controversy and it only adds to the history and mystique of routes, but it’s pretty disingenuous to not be upfront about this kinda shit, regardless of how/what’s gone down….

[Nike Air]

This just gets better each time I read these additional comments.

Did the first ascent get filmed?

[Will Hunt]

A chipped hold that's been filled? We just need the shit and the banner now.

[Wellsy]

Franco theads are my favourite UKB threads

[SA Chris]

You must be a Franco-phile.

[SA Chris]

I have one uneaten hat from a previous one of Franco’s bold claims regarding Dangermouse at Wimberry. Fortunately I have another one I can eat if he does this route on trad.

When are you naming a prob "The Art of Uneaten Hat Wearing"?.

[Teaboy]

[petejh]

Good pen picture of footballs' ''the most interesting man in the world'': https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/mario-balotelli-what-happened-most-interesting-man-in-the-world/bltcdabaf1c326fd3d3#cs7b8c61cdd92526b1

[Johnny Brown]

It would be interesting to see a photo of what went on. This comment on UKC 'ask him if he's plan on leaving his spiders web art installation of fixed ropes up permanently?' suggests it's a lot more than just a single rope with some knots in it akin to a bolt extension.

My view is it isn't a route yet. Unless he places or arranges bolts to be placed asap in the positions he used, he's done a decent ascent equivalent to a clean top-rope. It would be very easy for him to now drill them in more awkward positions, whether intentionally or not. As it stands it lacks the permanence to be repeatable, it will be noted in the line's history, but not the FA.

There may some precedents around the world but they're all notably isolated incidents where the general consensus has been, as Pete put it, that it would soon be a shitshow if we carried on similarly.

Taking a step back, I do think that to claim a sport route, it has to exist as such. Sport climbing is defined by the presence of bolts. If you want to establish sport climbs then you have to grapple with the ethical issues of drilling.

[Will Hunt]

My view is it isn't a route yet. Unless he places or arranges bolts to be placed asap in the positions he used, he's done a decent ascent equivalent to a clean top-rope. It would be very easy for him to now drill them in more awkward positions, whether intentionally or not. As it stands it lacks the permanence to be repeatable, it will be noted in the line's history, but not the FA.

Are you saying, in your view, that if the bolts were placed now then that would complete the FA with no further climbing. Or do you think he would have to relead it on the bolts?

[northern yob]

It’s too late by the sounds of it now….
 
See my comment above, Caff has bolted the start I think. God knows if where he’s put them is any kind of a nod to where the knots were!!

Back around methinks

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think he'd have to relead it. Otherwise, who knows where the clips were? Slate has a long history of bolts where the clips were the crux, and while this may not be the case here it doesn't mean they aren't an integral part of a sport lead.

[andy moles]

It would be interesting to see a photo of what went on. This comment on UKC 'ask him if he's plan on leaving his spiders web art installation of fixed ropes up permanently?' suggests it's a lot more than just a single rope with some knots in it akin to a bolt extension.

I think that's just a reference to there having been assorted ropes left in place on that bit of crag for the last couple of years now - some for getting in from the top, some for getting to the bottom. Rather than having much to do with the knotted rope scenario. Could be wrong.