[abarro81]

Oh good, now we can completely redefine traditional climbing! What fun!

[spidermonkey09]

If you aren't trolling (im still unconvinced!) then I think suffice to say it wouldn't surprise me if nobody else in the country shared your perspective. It's totally and utterly wrong to think you can claim a trad ascent by clipping protection in a knotted rope. Genuinely don't think I've ever seen something so nonsensical suggested even on UKC. 

[remus]

If you aren't trolling (im still unconvinced!) then I think suffice to say it wouldn't surprise me if nobody else in the country shared your perspective. It's totally and utterly wrong to think you can claim a trad ascent by clipping protection in a knotted rope.

Im sure Bradders will correct me if Im wrong, but I think what he's getting at is that style doesn't fit very nicely in to neat little 'sport', 'trad' and 'bouldering' buckets. There's a wide range of stuff that goes on that fits somewhere on a spectrum from good to bad style, with onsight solo with a copy of the bible rammed up your arse on one end, to chipping your way up a 3+ on top rope on the other.

People just need to be clear about what they're doing, not getting together lynch mobs because Bransby used a 2x4 to protect the start of baron greenback, or P widdy using bamboo draws on the same route.

[Bradders]

Thank you Remus, yes; that is exactly what I'm trying to articulate (badly).

[Moo]

Franco, excellent work in getting from the bottom to the top of that piece of rock, what an outrageous piece of climbing. I applaud that effort.

This shambles you've created around that event however is simply a continuation of the form you've shown previously and to be frank it dismays me. You hold very solid opinions about climbing ethics which flex and bend very rapidly as the realities of realising your ambition meet the limitations of you skill and nerve.

If you weren't chasing the notoriety (Which in my opinion you are, regardless of how you may protest) then I'd have you down as one of the most impressive and entertaining climbers in the uk. To quote myself on the last time we danced through these hoops learning nothing, please take a leaf out of Whittaker's book and let the climbing speak for itself.

[spidermonkey09]

Of course we can agree there is a range of styles. (although the specific example of Whittaker on Greenback is actually in the best tradition of trad, in that he placed them on the lead). The point I'm admittedly getting worked up about is the specific one about a trad lead being valid if you lower a rope from the top and clip into that on the way up, to the extent that if one did that they could claim a first ascent. That falls well outside the stylistic grey zones we've articulated; it is simply such poor style that it doesn't count as a lead. As JB has said, it is a top rope.

Perhaps this is my structuralist tendencies shining through but I have absolutely no truck with the idea that this is all just a matter of stylistic preference,interesting as those discussions are. Some ascents are valid, some are not. As Pete said higher up the thread, not everyone can be a winner. If you clip a knotted rope on a trad route you haven't done the trad route. You might as well say I've led Rainshadow from the ground but I pulled on the draws and stood on the bolts. That is not a poor form of style for someone to improve on. It is simply not an ascent.

It's of course interesting the ponder various styles and consider which are better than which others, but at some point that becomes metaphysical fluff and goes beyond parody, and you have to say what is and isn't a valid ascent.

[Paul B]

Of course we can agree there is a range of styles. (although the specific example of Whittaker on Greenback is actually in the best tradition of trad, in that he placed them on the lead). The point I'm admittedly getting worked up about is the specific one about a trad lead being valid if you lower a rope from the top and clip into that on the way up, to the extent that if one did that they could claim a first ascent. That falls well outside the stylistic grey zones we've articulated; it is simply such poor style that it doesn't count as a lead. As JB has said, it is a top rope.

Ahem, that's what I said (v. early on).

People can go and do whatever they want but if that's going to make it to the climbing news as something noteworthy then expect it to come under some scrutiny, especially if the detail doesn't come out in the first article.

[abarro81]

Quite. Sitting on bolts is not a "poor style" redpoint, it's not a free ascent of the route. Clipping loops on a dangling rope is not a "poor style" trad headpoint, it's not trad climbing.

As a follow on - If it's not trad climbing then it's nonsensical to try to apply a "trad" mindset about improving in style to it. It is far more valid - IMO - to apply the sport mindset, which involves bolting. You could of course treat it as its own unique style, that doesn't conform to trad or sport. This seems to be what remus is articulating. However, for all the reasons outlined by others on the thread (e.g., Stu, Pete), this style is a style that most people will consider bollocks and is a game that most people don't want to play, so chances are the thing will get treated by the rest of the climbing community as a sport route (yey, you can have the FA but now it's bolted) or will get treated as a trad route (i.e. it's still a project waiting for an ascent).

Perhaps we should be more open to this new style, but only in a niche location? Kind of like knotted ropes as nuts on those sandstone crags, or no-chalk zones or whatever - a curiosity of the particular crag or area, something that brings an unusual character and that doesn't neatly fit into the normal buckets? Maybe... but if you want to advocate for that then you need to do what Stu talked about - propose this new idea, convince people round to why this is a good idea in this context, accept why it's a shit idea in other contexts, and show why you think it would be fun to make, say, just this crag a weird little experimental hybrid crag where this unusual style is developed? If that approach were taken you might just convince people - you'd only need to convince a good dose of the local interested parties and you'd be onto a winner, I think people would probably respect weird local ethics if that's what the community wants. But you can't just pretend that it's not weird or controversial.

[remus]

Of course we can agree there is a range of styles. (although the specific example of Whittaker on Greenback is actually in the best tradition of trad, in that he placed them on the lead). The point I'm admittedly getting worked up about is the specific one about a trad lead being valid if you lower a rope from the top and clip into that on the way up, to the extent that if one did that they could claim a first ascent. That falls well outside the stylistic grey zones we've articulated; it is simply such poor style that it doesn't count as a lead. As JB has said, it is a top rope.

What about a route where you can ab down and place loads of threads to make the route safe? or bash in a load of pegs? Is that so stylistically different from the knotted rope? In both cases you're going to the top and adding protection to make it safe. People don't seem so worked up about routes like Just Klingon though.

Stepping back a little, style and people's perception of it changes over time. 100 years ago good style was going to the alps, falling off something with no kit and killing yourself and all the other poor bastards who happened to be tied to the same rope as you. 50 years ago it was doing some sketchy mountain trad in EBs and trying not to place your single drilled nut runner too early. Today it is apparently placing bolts on a route you've claimed. In 50 years time it'll be live streaming yourself while you try and complete the Jim's Gym round of the 150 best indoor walls in the north east. Saying a particular style is valid and correct seems to have poor longevity.

p.s. I agree a knotted rope from the top would be very poor style on trad. Obviously it's way easier than a normal trad ascent. I don't think it makes sense to say it's invalid though, just bad style.

[Bonjoy]

Im sure Bradders will correct me if Im wrong, but I think what he's getting at is that style doesn't fit very nicely in to neat little 'sport', 'trad' and 'bouldering' buckets. There's a wide range of stuff that goes on that fits somewhere on a spectrum from good to bad style, with onsight solo with a copy of the bible rammed up your arse on one end, to chipping your way up a 3+ on top rope on the other.

People just need to be clear about what they're doing, not getting together lynch mobs because Bransby used a 2x4 to protect the start of baron greenback, or P widdy using bamboo draws on the same route.

Thank you Remus, yes; that is exactly what I'm trying to articulate (badly).

I don't think anyone has suggested that there aren't edge cases and some blurring between categories, clearly there is. But this doesn't mean that >99% of things DO fit in these boxes and that therefore the boxes are valid and useful concepts worth maintaining. It's also clear that the knotted rope style if it's an edge case is one uncomfortably straddling the line between sport route and top rope and is a million miles from the trad box. The fact there are edge cases is never a good argument for suggesting all categories are valueless and should be abandoned.
Hats off to Franco if this is all a performance art piece satirising the contemporary gender debate.

[El Mocho]

People just need to be clear about what they're doing, not getting together lynch mobs because Bransby used a 2x4 to protect the start of baron greenback, or P widdy using bamboo draws on the same route.

Don't bring me into this, I've been watching from the sidelines deliberately keeping quiet.

ps the 2x4 was placed on lead so I stand by it being a completely valid ascent of the highest ethical standards.

[abarro81]

Is that so stylistically different from the knotted rope?

Pegs are bullshit. Pegs on seacliffs are super bullshit. Rotting tat is moderate bullshit.

Ignoring the idea of hammering in new pegs - which is obviously bullshit and would cause a storm on many crags, the fundamental difference is surely the fundamental defining feature of trad - dealing with what the rock gives you. If you start to include setting up ropes from the top in this then TRing is just fine. But TRing is not trad climbing in the accepted rules of the game.

Saying a particular style is valid and correct seems to have poor longevity.

Well let's sack it all off and just TR aid those 9b and E12 projects and claim the FA then.

I don't think it makes sense to say it's invalid though, just bad style.

You are truely insane if you think that this is a valid trad ascent. Unless you also think TRing is a valid trad ascent? I never knew flashing E9 was going to be so easy! I can only assume that Remus is trolling as he's far too intelligent to believe what he's writing.

[spidermonkey09]

To take those two examples, whilst I wouldn't place pegs on trad routes nowadays, the key thing with both pegs and threads is they work with what the rock offers. They're essentially pre-placed gear. Loads of people do trad with some/all gear pre-placed, this is a million miles away from the knotted rope scenario, which artificially adds protection where the rock might offer none.

As Bonjoy says, knotted ropes are a huge distance away from the trad climbing box. If you think that would be permissible, even in poor style, you're effectively saying there is nothing that doesn't count as an ascent, only as a poor style of ascent and that is nonsense. Some things don't count. This would be one of them. These are the rules of the game we play, accepted by 99.99% of climbers.

I just feel quite strongly that not every ascent counts for something. Leading up a trad route in that style is stylistically worthless according to the history and rules of the game we play, accepted by 99.99% of climbers. As I've already said, even Franco wouldn't accept that as an ascent; because by that logic hes already done his trad project. Its not logically coherent.

[remus]

I agree that I wouldn't count a knotted rope from the top as a trad ascent, but i wouldn't say the ascent itself is invalid as the person has climbed from the bottom to the top. It's just a poor style, somewhere between a top rope and a lead. Same as if someone has top roped something or even aided it. They've climbed it, just in a poor style.

To be honest I suspect we're just arguing over terminology here. I totally agree it'd be rubbish style, and it people aren't out and about doing this because I suspect it's a pretty boring way to climb.

[spidermonkey09]

I agree that I wouldn't count a knotted rope from the top as a trad ascent, but i wouldn't say the ascent itself is invalid as the person has climbed from the bottom to the top. It's just a poor style, somewhere between a top rope and a lead. Same as if someone has top roped something or even aided it. They've climbed it, just in a poor style.

To be honest I suspect we're just arguing over terminology here. I totally agree it'd be rubbish style, and it people aren't out and about doing this because I suspect it's a pretty boring way to climb.

Yeah, so its not a valid lead ascent. Thats my point; Bradders' is that it would be a valid lead ascent.

[abarro81]

If you TR a trad proj it's still a proj - you haven't climbed it as a trad climb. That means no FA of the trad route, no name, no grade... If Franco had said he just did this as a personally enjoyable stepping stone to his trad project no one would have batted an eyelid.

[Franco]

For sure it's good to challenge the status quo and there are good and less good ways to go about it.

Franco's peripheral justifications keep wriggling around -
'the approach is so epic', then, 'no it's actually not that big deal' (it really isn't a difficult approach, and could easily be made even simpler/safer).

That's really unfair. I merely described the two normal approaches.  I never said it was epic. Once you've got it dialled, you can get to the base of the meltdown in 90 secondsish. But is does still require an abseil / traxion out and I'm not sure the meltdown is clipstickable. It's more faff than sorting out the knots wad my point.

'all the trad routes are being bolted' - except the route he wanted to do as trad hadn't been bolted. (until he claimed it in a style that requires fixed protection and it got bolted as a result!).

Obviously I'm talking about the eaiser routes like windows, medium etc.

'People only have a problem because it's hard', then 'people only have a problem because I publicised it'.   Nope, people are pretty much only taking issue because it's a deterioration in style; unhelpful to other climbers wanting to climb; messy; that sets an awful precedent that can easily be applied anywhere else to the detriment of the activity; and introduces stylistic 'trad ownership' over routes in an area which isn't a trad-only area - it's always been a mixed ethic of trad/sport/mixed routes.

That's an opinion.  I see it the complete opposite. My solution allows sport with minimal faff and some designer danger trad at least - a compromise. What happened with the bolting of the Meltdown is that sport claimed ownership over that piece of rock. Now you mention it, what would be really interesting actually is to try and reduce the number of bolts on the meltdown and make it fit better with the slate ethic of designer danger, like all the other routes on that wall/ the rainbow/ california etc. I hadn't thought of that actually...

I really wish we could have this debate face to face - I just think your argument is non-existent.

I live 5 minutes down the hill from bus stop quarry in Fachwen. I'll happily put the kettle on and we can chat, you'd be made welcome and I hope you'd find me friendly and open minded to your views.



Or a wider debate, but face to face debates with large groups of people with counter opinions are notoriously not actually good for articulating nuanced points - I think mass meetings are good for the emotional aspect of getting together and seeing we don't have horns in our heads, but not actually for making the nuanced points that are the nub of the issue. Lots of people don't like speaking up in public or have trouble expressing clearly in speaking what they could in writing. See BMC area meetings for e.g., more about social/emotional feel-good than actually getting into the weeds of an issue.

Last thing - it's really funny and ironic that one of us has history of physically removing bolts from sport routes in twll mawr to preserve a historic trad route (Hamadryad)... the same person also has history of removing every bolt and peg from an existing 30m sport route to create what will be a genuinely brilliant 30m safe E8 with zero pieces of fixed gear. And re-positioning someone else's sport route bolts to preserve the feel of an esoteric but good E5 in Penmaen Bach Quarry.
It isn't the person you'd expect from reading this thread.. It also wasn't publicised to build a profile.

Just pointing out you're not the only person who loves trad and will bend the status quo to preserve it, many of us do.

Dewin!

[Will Hunt]

Remus, come clean. You're about to launch a new product.
Want to climb trad routes but can't be bothered to learn how? Does it look scary and dangerous to you? We've got your back with the Lattice Lattice, the new low that's taking you to new heights in poorstyle trad.

[northern yob]

[

Don't bring me into this, I've been watching from the sidelines deliberately keeping quiet.

ps the 2x4 was placed on lead so I stand by it being a completely valid ascent of the highest ethical standards.

Balls to that Ben…. What do you think?? Genuinely this isn’t a time to be sitting on the fence! The rules of the game are in danger of being rewritten 😂😂

[Franco]

Of course we can agree there is a range of styles. (although the specific example of Whittaker on Greenback is actually in the best tradition of trad, in that he placed them on the lead).

I disagree.  I think it's a great effort and like weird quirks like that, but I'd imagine he'd agree it's a style to be improved on. Ultimately if you allowed the use of sticks to clip things on trad routes, you could stick clip a lot of things in the quarries, or pegs elsewhere and I don't think people would think that's acceptable.

Also, just to make it clear, this rope wasn't from the top, it was an extension of the bolts from the meltdown groove, so how you can say it's top roping, I have no idea. There is a complete sliding scale from a draw, to a double draw, to extended sling, to this. You could actually lead this with a couple of very long slings instead of the rope.

I still don't think you get the ownership thing. I'm not saying my opinion is any more valid than anyone else's. I hate the "what does the first ascensionist think" thing. It's rock. It's part of all our shared world. I don't have any more right to bolt it or save it as a closed trad project, but nor does anyone else. I will however continue to argue for what I think is right, as I thought long and hard about my actions on this line and still think I chose the best course of action.

[Paul B]

There is a complete sliding scale from a draw, to a double draw, to extended sling, to this. You could actually lead this with a couple of very long slings instead of the rope.

You could just pre-clip it too.

[Franco]

Regarding the publicity/ keeping it secret thing: I felt I had led a sport route in a style that was repeatable for others. I thought people would think it was an amusing curiosity/ a bit naff, but I really didn't think it would get this reception.  Pete's bamboo poles were what was in my mind and seemed far more provocative to me than extending draws on a sport climb that everyone top ropes anyway...

[petejh]

That's really unfair.

Everything's unfair when you play the victim. As previously said by others, own your shit.

Obviously I'm talking about the eaiser routes like windows, medium etc.

You mean routes that were done when you were a toddler or earlier? That's life.. the UK's covered in routes all over sea-cliffs that were done in the 70s-2000's in poor style with fixed gear (imo); and left us with a sub-optimal mess of corroded crap which we had no say in. That's a bigger an issue than a bold slate slab getting bolted in an area that climbers agreed works best with a mix of fully bolted, partially bolted (runout), and gear.   

That's an opinion.  I see it the complete opposite. My solution allows sport with minimal faff and some designer danger trad at least - a compromise.

It's an opinion shared by a huge majority of people  .  Your 'solution' is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist for anyone else except you!

Watching you at work is a bit like watching someone advocating blowing up a vaccine factory as a 'solution' to their strongly-held belief that there's a problem with everyone in vaccine factories being lizard overlords in disguise trying to inject us with microchips.

That's an opinion..

What happened with the bolting of the Meltdown is that sport claimed ownership over that piece of rock. Now you mention it, what would be really interesting actually is to try and reduce the number of bolts on the meltdown and make it fit better with the slate ethic of designer danger, like all the other routes on that wall/ the rainbow/ california etc. I hadn't thought of that actually...

Troll mode engaged again then? 

Gosh yes that would be a positive move - start a bolt-chopping / re-bolting war on other people's routes in the slate quarries just because you hold an ideologically extreme view of climbing that 99.9% of climbers don't agree with. If you went down that route it could be another piece of evidence in a growing portfolio, of your absolute disregard for anyone's views other than your own.

And you're definitely showing your true troll colours now. Talking balls about chopping bolts to make designer danger routes? Because this was your reply when I suggested to you that you made a complete bollocks of your new route by not spotting the potential for it to be a classic 'designer danger route':

And the idea that me placing a couple of bolts and creating a designer danger line would have gone down better is hilarious. That really is classic UKB, shifting which tiny ethical issue to get most outraged by 🤣

Tiresome troll.

[Franco]

That's really unfair.

Everything's unfair when you play the victim. As previously said by others, own your shit.

Untrue then. The argument was that it was loads of effort to hang a rope. I said getting onto the route is far more effort. You're suggesting I'm changing my position to suit my argument. I'm not.

Obviously I'm talking about the eaiser routes like windows, medium etc.

You mean routes that were done when you were a toddler or earlier? That's life.. the UK's covered in routes all over sea-cliffs that were done in the 70s-2000's in poor style with fixed gear (imo); and left us with a sub-optimal mess of corroded crap which we had no say in. That's a bigger an issue than a bold slate slab getting bolted in an area that climbers agreed works best with a mix of fully bolted, partially bolted (runout), and gear.   

That's an opinion.  I see it the complete opposite. My solution allows sport with minimal faff and some designer danger trad at least - a compromise.

It's an opinion shared by a huge majority of people  .  Your 'solution' is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist for anyone else except you!

But in the 60s your opinion would have only been held by you. What I'm trying to do is futureproof the solution, so that when bold Trad comes back round, we haven't fucked all the best lines up.

Watching you at work is a bit like watching someone advocating blowing up a vaccine factory as a 'solution' to their strongly-held belief that there's a problem with everyone in vaccine factories being lizard overlords in disguise trying to inject us with microchips.

That's an opinion..

What happened with the bolting of the Meltdown is that sport claimed ownership over that piece of rock. Now you mention it, what would be really interesting actually is to try and reduce the number of bolts on the meltdown and make it fit better with the slate ethic of designer danger, like all the other routes on that wall/ the rainbow/ california etc. I hadn't thought of that actually...

Troll mode engaged again then? 

Gosh yes that would be a positive move - start a bolt-chopping / re-bolting war on other people's routes in the slate quarries just because you hold an ideologically extreme view of climbing that 99.9% of climbers don't agree with. If you went down that route it could be another piece of evidence in a growing portfolio, of your absolute disregard for anyone's views other than your own.

And you're definitely showing your true troll colours now. Talking balls about chopping bolts to make designer danger routes? Because this was your reply when I suggested to you that you made a complete bollocks of your new route by not spotting the potential for it to be a classic 'designer danger route':

I'd suggest it is you who has a shifting argument. You say I should have done a designer danger route, then are outraged when I agree.  I'm not in troll mode at all. I know how provocative it would be to to start chopping bolts, but, honestly, I do think we're nearly at that point with hard trad. Just like people were outraged with the first bolts being placed, you may be outraged by the chopping, but I really don't think you've got your head around how many bold Trad climbs have been destroyed by bolting. Both chopping and bolting are in a sense vandalism, but to act all holier than thou because you currently hold a majority opinion (although I am getting some messages of support on this) is at best fairly narrow minded.

And the idea that me placing a couple of bolts and creating a designer danger line would have gone down better is hilarious. That really is classic UKB, shifting which tiny ethical issue to get most outraged by 🤣

Tiresome troll.

[mrjonathanr]

p.s. I agree a knotted rope from the top would be very poor style on trad. Obviously it's way easier than a normal trad ascent. I don't think it makes sense to say it's invalid though, just bad style.

Surely we can agree that makes a trad route traditional is

1) going from the bottom up to the top
2) only using protection afforded by the features of the rock.

Your contention here is that when neither 1 or 2 hold true, it’s still trad. Of course it’s not 

Preplaced slings and pegs may not be the best style, but they still conform to those basic principles if you start at the bottom and work upwards. A top rope manifestly does not.