[T_B]

OMG I’ve just realised all these routes and proposed routes with names and sport grades and proposed trad grades are listed on UKC, as Franco is the crag moderator for Twll Mawr. No asterisks to indicate ‘a newly updated climb waiting to be checked by the crag moderator’.

It’s all getting a bit Si O’Connor.

[SA Chris]

Classic poacher gamekeeper.

FWIW I actually hope he goes back and releads it on the new bolts. it does sound and look like an amazing piece of climbing ("chipped" and filled holds notwithstanding).

[Will Hunt]

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think he'd have to relead it. Otherwise, who knows where the clips were? Slate has a long history of bolts where the clips were the crux, and while this may not be the case here it doesn't mean they aren't an integral part of a sport lead.

I can't see how that would make a difference? If the bolts haven't been placed where the knots were then you'd just extend them until they were?

(I'm not trying to persuade you otherwise, just exploring the thinking behind your view)

[Paul B]

That would depend on whether Caff gets there 'first'?

I don't think the comparisons to extending draws elsewhere are great. There are plenty of challenges on slate where doing so would be a retrograde step.

[Fultonius]

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think he'd have to relead it. Otherwise, who knows where the clips were? Slate has a long history of bolts where the clips were the crux, and while this may not be the case here it doesn't mean they aren't an integral part of a sport lead.

I can't see how that would make a difference? If the bolts haven't been placed where the knots were then you'd just extend them until they were?

(I'm not trying to persuade you otherwise, just exploring the thinking behind your view)

Well, if the bolt is now 30cm left or right it could be a ballache to clip?

I added a bolt to a route at Dumby, as there was a long runout beyond the crux before which people usually  extended but it was a pita for working and onsighting so we stuck another one in. It's in a good clipping position, but with the wrong length QD on it the rope can get in the road of the crux foot sequence.

Now, if the rope knots were clipable, then it should in theory be pretty easy to get the bolts in the right place and I doubt Caff would fuck it up.

Also, did the write up not say the start was actually easier than the meltdown original? (and the crux is later)

[Will Hunt]

That would depend on whether Caff gets there 'first'?

I don't think the comparisons to extending draws elsewhere are great. There are plenty of challenges on slate where doing so would be a retrograde step.

Isn't there a difference between those routes described as trad and sport? You'd get called out for extending the bolts on Poetry Pink but all the people I've seen on The Medium recently have got a sling on the bolt by the crux so it can be clipped twice.

[teestub]

Also, did the write up not say the start was actually easier than the meltdown original? (and the crux is later)

Effectively climbs the straight up line of the buttress, missing out the first hard move of the Meltdown, but with harder moves to join the same point from below and a harder finish.   

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/twll_mawr-636/the_dewin_stone-682592

Also page for Quarryman Wall to see all the projects written up including the 9b https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/twll_mawr-636/#the_quarryman_wall

[spidermonkey09]

This thread is such a frustrating read. A genuinely noteworthy piece of climbing ruined because of a sociopathic obsession with controversy.

I think he's earned the right to be named as the first ascentionist but I, and I'm sure others, think less of him as a result. I'm sure he doesn't care about that but  Just all a bit stupid. Well done Caff for bolting it.

[ali k]

Well, if the bolt is now 30cm left or right it could be a ballache to clip?
...with the wrong length QD on it the rope can get in the road of the crux foot sequence.

Both of which might be solved by having a knotted rope which you can just flick left or right to put it in the right position when it suits. Not saying it's definitely easier this way - all a bit hypothetical and it could be just as much or even more of a ballache, but using a knotted rope just isn't the same as a bolt in a fixed position regardless of how long you choose to extend it.

Plus, as Ian said, if you're trying to replicate the safety of a sport route without using bolts by hanging a knotted rope down the thing then why only do it for the lower bit and not the top? Pointless.

[Bonjoy]

It would be interesting to see a photo of what went on. This comment on UKC 'ask him if he's plan on leaving his spiders web art installation of fixed ropes up permanently?' suggests it's a lot more than just a single rope with some knots in it akin to a bolt extension.

My view is it isn't a route yet. Unless he places or arranges bolts to be placed asap in the positions he used, he's done a decent ascent equivalent to a clean top-rope. It would be very easy for him to now drill them in more awkward positions, whether intentionally or not. As it stands it lacks the permanence to be repeatable, it will be noted in the line's history, but not the FA.

There may some precedents around the world but they're all notably isolated incidents where the general consensus has been, as Pete put it, that it would soon be a shitshow if we carried on similarly.

Taking a step back, I do think that to claim a sport route, it has to exist as such. Sport climbing is defined by the presence of bolts. If you want to establish sport climbs then you have to grapple with the ethical issues of drilling.

You're ruling essentially that you can't have your ethical hat and eat it.

[ali k]

a sociopathic obsession with controversy.

Is it this, or is it desperation for recognition which then leads to exaggerated/misleading claims? (which ultimately results in the controversy) 

[northern yob]

The bit I’m interested in is who is the phantom chipper…. And did Franco use the chipped hold or not!

I’m not sure how much I’m gonna believe his inevitable “ no of course not” reply….

Given he’s not been particularly open about what’s gone on. Which is a real shame, I like the i don’t give a fuck attitude, I just wish he would take a bit more ownership of what’s gone on and be upfront about it.

It’s undoubtedly an amazing piece of climbing, there’s no taking that away from him.

For me given everything I’m not sure it counts as a valid ascent of the route… that’s just my opinion. Hats off to him he’s certainly livened up a wet week!!

[northern yob]

Just to be absolutely clear, no one has said to me a hold has been chipped….. a new hold “appeared” it could very well have been there for ever, just not noticed.

If this is the case, it’s also pretty whack that he’s taken it upon himself to force a sequence…..

Either way it’s all quite sad, but will be a great read in the history section of the guide(if such things exist ) in a few years time!!

[petejh]

I doubt it will be a great read, the slate guide is now a rockfax. 

I half-expect Franco to author the next guide to really have the insane running the asylum. Going by that UKC logbook page linked to earlier he's already trying to claim ownership over the ethical narrative of the unclimbed lines on Quarryman Wall.

[Johnny Brown]

If anyone thinks this wall is just sport climbing, i.e. 'it's the climbing not the clipping', note that the neighbouring route Quarryman pitch 1 gets 7c but 'also considered E6 6c with gear to reduce the run outs'. 

[stone]

a sociopathic obsession with controversy.

Is it this, or is it desperation for recognition which then leads to exaggerated/misleading claims? (which ultimately results in the controversy) 

My impression is that Franco might just do whatever he is inclined to do, not specifically to seek attention, but not shying away from it either. I guess most people think of potential things to do but hold back whilst Franco just does it.

I'm thinking of another old Franco "happening". People nowadays don't generally leave quickdraws in Peak sport crags but it used to be pretty standard. Back then, Franco stripped the quickdraws out of Raven Tor and told people he had done so. My guess is that nowadays Franco might retrospectively be seen as a bit of a hero for doing that but (for many/most people) he wasn't back then. (disclosure, I think my draws were amongst those taken)
This link is to that:- https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10781.msg181313.html#msg181313

[remus]

OMG I’ve just realised all these routes and proposed routes with names and sport grades and proposed trad grades are listed on UKC, as Franco is the crag moderator for Twll Mawr. No asterisks to indicate ‘a newly updated climb waiting to be checked by the crag moderator’.

It’s all getting a bit Si O’Connor.

Maybe it's changed recently, but anything unclimbed has a grade of 'project' and 'unclimbed' in the FA details. To me that seems pretty clear and not like anything is being claimed. I kind of like it, seems like the modern equivalent of having projects mentioned in the guide.

[teestub]

Maybe it's changed recently, but anything unclimbed has a grade of 'project' and 'unclimbed' in the FA details. To me that seems pretty clear and not like anything is being claimed. I kind of like it, seems like the modern equivalent of having projects mentioned in the guide.

At the time I linked it earlier, they all had grades listed (up to E12 7b and 9b), but they have now been updated to have ‘project’ instead.

[T_B]

I don’t mind a ‘project’ being listed. But naming and grading trad routes that haven’t been climbed is completely ridiculous ego-driven bolloxs in my view. Can I add ‘Tom’s arête’ E8 7b 3 stars “climb the arête  right of Smiling Buttress”? I’ve been on it a couple of times and have some idea of the difficulty. No, of course I can’t!

Edit: as per teestub post someone is reading this thread and agrees.

[remus]

I don’t mind a ‘project’ being listed. But naming and grading trad routes that haven’t been climbed is completely ridiculous ego-driven bolloxs in my view. Can I add ‘Tom’s arête’ E8 7b 3 stars “climb the arête  right of Smiling Buttress”? I’ve been on it a couple of times and have some idea of the difficulty. No, of course I can’t!

Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem that crazy. Smiling Buttress, Wizard Ridge, Launch Pad Project etc. were all named before they were climbed and of course the FA is free to suggest whatever name and grade they want (e.g. Launch Pad Project became Floatin').

Perhaps if Franco had called them "Franco's 5* Line" it'd be a bit shit, in the same way it'd be a shit, egotistical name if it was suggested by the FA.

[andy moles]

Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem that crazy. Smiling Buttress, Wizard Ridge, Launch Pad Project etc. were all named before they were climbed and of course the FA is free to suggest whatever name and grade they want (e.g. Launch Pad Project became Floatin').

Or La Dura Dura?

Interesting one. I had the impression that the names of these other projects had come about sort of organically, rather than had their names deliberately chosen. Which feels kind of different, if true.

[jwi]

For sport climbing it totally makes sense to mention unclimbed lines in guidebooks and route databases, because otherwise it can be confusing to orient yourself at the crag. When the routes are listed from left to right, projects should be listed just to help with finding routes.

Writing up a undone trad project in a topo or route database is ludicrous.

[andy moles]

I think it's a bit OTT to call naming trad projects 'ridiculous ego driven bollox' or 'ludicrous'. I think it's just a bit overkeen and possessive.

[Duncan campbell]

I don’t know if it’s that weird to name it, especially if the namer has a few projects on the go, but grading it (as seems to have been done at some point) is maybe the odd bit? But as long as it’s obvious it’s all a work in progress it’s not that bad is it?

[Moo]

I don't mind the naming of projects really I think it gives a nice link to the past as part of the history of that climb. Think about when Jean-Christophe Lafaille bolted biographie in 89 and it sat in the middle of ceuse as an infamous project before sharma came along and sieged it into submission. It all adds to the story but ultimately it'll always be the quality of the route or boulder problem itself that determines its level of notoriety.