[Kingy]

I wondered if anybody knew why this linkup has been upgraded on UKC when its always been 8a. Chimes is 8a+ via Baby Chimes (8a). The start up the Green Alternative 7c is much easier

[Dingdong]

I wondered if anybody knew why this linkup has been upgraded on UKC when its always been 8a. Chimes is 8a+ via Baby Chimes (8a). The start up the Green Alternative 7c is much easier

Isn’t green alternative 7c+? Where’s the downgrade come from 

[Kingy]

In 2009, early repeaters, myself included, thought Green Alternative likely fair at 7c rather than 7c+, see 8a.nu logs. If it is 7c+ then Weedkiller the route to the right and Baby Chimes both look undergraded. Regardless, Chimes Alternative seems out of place at 8a+ compared to Chimes at the same grade! Why not give Chimes 8b if we're in the business of upgrading stuff?

[spidermonkey09]

There are loads of random UKC upgrades as they make new guidebooks, or in reality new updates for the app. There are loads at Kilnsey too; eg Grooved Arete is now 8b. It's bollocks but I have asked Alan why and he just refers to grade votes which is obviously nonsense.

[Kingy]

Load of shite 

[Bradders]

Can I have a list of the upgraded problems / routes please?

Asking for a friend.

[Kingy]

Grooved Arete is up to 8b
Ain't no sponsored here is up to 7c+
Pantomime is up to 7c
50 for 5 is up to 7c

I'm sure there are others

[stone]

I've not done that link but I've done others that include all of its bits and I'd agree it sounds more 8a than 8a+. I found Fowl-Play (8a) harder above its Green-Alternative start than I did the headwall of Chimes after Chimes short. Chimes headwall has the resting buckets on the ramp that mean it just adds quality rather than red-point difficulty IMO.

As an aside, Green Alternative feels 7c+ not 7c for those of us lacking omph and strong fingers.
It's very basic but that means there's no way to wriggle through via guile and practiced beta.
Perhaps Green Alternative would be graded 7c in terms of how readily flashed it is (by the likes of you!) but not in terms of struggles to red-point it.

[Kingy]

Impossible that Chimes Alternative is 8a+!

Haha, good memory! OK, I concede that Green Alternative is markedly harder for the short and perhaps soft 7c+ in that case. I wish more people would at least try Weedkiller the route, nobody tries it ever and its better than GA which was excavated and sika'd out of the rubble.

Is Baby Chimes really only 1 grade harder than GA though? 

[Kingy]

What happens now on UKC with my link up 'Green Fighter' 8a which adds the Right to Roam finish above Chimes Alternative. Will the mysterious upgraders get this up to 8a+ as well?

[spidermonkey09]

Grooved Arete is up to 8b
Ain't no sponsored here is up to 7c+
Pantomime is up to 7c
50 for 5 is up to 7c

I'm sure there are others

Myra up to 7c+

Tbf some those are, imo, deserved, but there's a lack of rationale which annoys me. Some reflect Northern Rock, the most recent up to date guide, which seems fair enough. Grooved Arete annoys me the most, no reason for that upgrade at all.

[kc]

Weedkiller and GA are probably just at the opposite ends of the same grade and I know a few that find Weedkiller easier. Short Chimes is probably at the upper end of the next grade up.
I agree that Chimes Alternative is not 8a+ but it won't have been intentionally upgraded either. I'm sure it is just a mistake in proof reading.
I can't change route information on there if it has a "R" (in app or print) but I will request a correction but that may not happen till the next update.

[NaoB]

 Grooved Arete annoys me the most, no reason for that upgrade at all.

This is just your subjective opinion though. What makes you think you are right compared to the majority? I think GA is really frustratingly hard! Feels much harder than the 8a+'s I have climbed. But I guess I must be wrong......

To clarify, I have not grade voted this for 8b anywhere, but I would if someone asked me.

[Stabbsy]

Grooved Arete is up to 8b
Ain't no sponsored here is up to 7c+
Pantomime is up to 7c
50 for 5 is up to 7c

I'm sure there are others

Can’t comment on Grooved Arête as I’ve not tried it, but I’d agree with the others. I find 50 for 5 harder than Pantomime and both harder than Comedy, so depends if Comedy is 7c.

I found Sponsored Hero hard - it includes the crux of Tragedy, albeit with a slightly easier intro and then adds another hardish section above. I did it around the same time as Mr Nice and The Jekyll and found it harder than both.

Myra fine at 7c unless it’s lost significant holds since I did it.

[spidermonkey09]

Ha I remember discussing this at crag Nao and you called me out then as well. 

I guess it's more that I don't think the grades of routes should just be arbitrarily changed, unless there is a really clear consensus, or something has fallen off that clearly changes the grade. If its just a matter of subjective opinion (which I would accept this is) then I don't think the grade should be changed, either up or down. As to how we arrive at that consensus, I agree that is the million dollar question!

Also I'm not convinced "the majority" do think it's 8b, but I guess we will never have any data for that. Grade voting is totally pointless in my opinion, it's basically junk data. I think the other thing that makes me think GA doesn't need changing is that even if we accept it's been a borderline case for years, the knee bar just before the crux is really quite good with modern pads and makes doing the crux a fair bit easier after a rest.

[Kingy]

To provide some background to Grooved Arete for those who may not be aware. It was graded 8b around the time of Tony Mitchell's first ascent in 1992. However, the resting 'jug' by the last bolt was only big enough for one hand so you could only shake out one arm before the last move! It parted company with the crag, as is the wont of many holds at Kilnsey(!) A replacement jug was found below the crag and glued on with the difference that it was now possible to shake out with both hands. I believe this was one of the driving forces behind the downgrade to 8a+.

I don't log on UKC and don't vote on there either but do take an interest in up/down grades for the sake of the historical record.

[spidermonkey09]

Fwiw I would agree Sponsored Hero is probably 7c+ and 50/5 just about 7c. I don't think Myra needed upgrading though, that was fine at 7c for me.

Comedy is a funny one. If the knee bar at the rest fits you it becomes a totally different proposition but I think it's a weird leg length one.

[Stabbsy]

To provide some background to Grooved Arete for those who may not be aware….

You’re missing the (possibly apocryphal) bit of the story where Pete Chadwick successfully redpointed it after some effort and Dunning, while still a teacher, set it as a class project to downvote it to 8a+ on the old Rockfax website.

[Kingy]

Haha, I can believe it!

FWIW, Ain't no sponsored hero is 7b+ in my 2004 Rockfax, just sayin.....

[Dingdong]

There are loads of random UKC upgrades as they make new guidebooks, or in reality new updates for the app. There are loads at Kilnsey too; eg Grooved Arete is now 8b. It's bollocks but I have asked Alan why and he just refers to grade votes which is obviously nonsense.

Grade voting on UKC should be public - this would solve a lot of problems. That or only allowing people who have sent the problem/route to vote, either way I still think voting should be public

[NaoB]

Gotta love a good grade debate hey. Hard 8a+ is not really any different to soft 8b in reality. Whereas soft 8a is miles away from hard 8a for instance!

I'd like to say I don't care, but I clearly do... i reckon I'd be more motivated to get back on GA if I was going to be rewarded with an 8b tick!!

[Felix14]

Grooved Arete is up to 8b
Ain't no sponsored here is up to 7c+
Pantomime is up to 7c
50 for 5 is up to 7c

I'm sure there are others

I found Sponsored Hero hard - it includes the crux of Tragedy, albeit with a slightly easier intro and then adds another hardish section above. I did it around the same time as Mr Nice and The Jekyll and found it harder than both.

This is very interesting to read. I found Mr nice the living end at 7c+ and it took me many sessions. Whereas I ain't no... felt standard 7c to me.

[Adam Lincoln]

Ive never known a country that is so obsessed with a grade being absolutely spot on. They don't spend hours and hours debating it in say, Spain. Yes the culture around it all is a bit different with not so many discussions online as here, but you also don't hear people going on about it at the crag.

[stone]

I'm curious as to how the Chimes Alternative upgrade on ukc has come about since it doesn't reflect the ukc votes or general experience. Are you (kc) saying it is because ukc is linked to an (online) guidebook and a typo was made in that (online) guidebook?  If its genesis really was just a typing goof then we should be thankful it wasn't a slip to 6a or 9a I guess.

This all  prompted me to guess some Darth Grader inputs for those routes
How about:-
Green Alternative: 6B / no rest / 7A soft = 7c+
Chimes Alternative: 6B / no rest / 7A soft / bad rest / 6B / good rest/ 7b hard = 8a
Fowl Play: 6B / no rest / 7A soft / bad rest / 7b+ / good rest / 7b = 8a hard
Chimes: 6B / no rest / 7B / bad rest / 6B / good rest / 7b hard = 8a+
Chimes short: 6B / no rest / 7B = 8a+ soft
Waddage: 6B / no rest / 7B / bad rest / 6B / good rest / 7b+ / good rest / 7b+ = 8a+ hard

Obviously people will disagree with all the component bits in that too 

[Stabbsy]

Haha, I can believe it!

FWIW, Ain't no sponsored hero is 7b+ in my 2004 Rockfax, just sayin.....

Yep, well aware. Along with Felix’s comment, it’s just further confirmation that grades are just a guide and don’t really matter that much. All you can ever say with certainty is I’ve climbed route X and not I’ve climbed grade Y. Or what Adam said.