[James Malloch]

Is anyone planning to watch this starting tomorrow?

Any tips for good coverage would be welcomed. I’ve got Discovery+ so can have the live race in the background, but it would be good to have some shorter daily summaries to watch.

I’ve never really watched cycling but really enjoyed the TdF: Unchained series on Netflix so I’m keen to keep track of the Vuelta.

[wasbeen]

Lanterne Rouge highlights on You Tube are always worth a watch. They are packed with insight. It surprises me that even when I watch a stage from start to finish, how much I have missed. Love the Veulta, thinking man's tour!

[m.cooke.1421]

I think Discovery+ is the same coverage as GCN. They might do 30-40 minute highlights as well as the 2-3 minute ones. If you are unable to watch live and want to watch it after the event then my preferred option is to follow How Far Out For This Race? on twitter who give a suggestion of where would be good to watch from and then you can just skip through the full race coverage to the relevant points. This way if it is a sprint stage with a break full of cannon fodder you know you only need to watch the last 5km rather than sit through the whole 40 minute highlights. However, if the same stage gets blown apart by crosswinds then you can choose to watch more of it.

If you are following live whilst at work then the livestats on procyclingstats is pretty handy for working out what is going on.

[JJP]

The vuelta is often a really good watch as is the last grand tour of season so lots of people go for it!

I tend to watch a few of the bigger stages in full on eurosport (have as part of tv package).
However, for majority of stages I watch the ITV4 highlights show which is usually pretty good (set to record series).

For more detailed analysis I am a really big fan of the cycling podcast. They do a daily episode that comes out late each night (so i usually listen next morning on commute) and often pick up on smaller stories etc with good interviews and guests. They also tend do adjunct episodes covering topics related to race eg historical or related to specific climbs or stages.

[Paul B]

I don't think ITV have any coverage this year, it's either GCN+, Discovery+ or Eurosport.

GCN seem flaky with getting highlights up on time and not getting confused between the long and short highlights.

[JJP]

ah your right, just googled it, no highlights on ITV4.

There is mention of an hour show on Quest at 7 as well as the eurosport, gcn etc.

[shurt]

I'd second the Cycling Podcast. They do a daily pod ast during the grand tours. The Lanterne Rouge YouTube is good and they also do a daily podcast which I love.

 Both podcasts have slightly different perspectives. CP is more journalistic, interviews with riders and they have people at the race. LR is more in depth analysis of each stage, tactics etc. I think they compliment each other really well.
They both did a preview podcast each to the tune of about and a half, if you're not prepped after that you never will be!
Should be a cracker this year - Jonas, Roglic, G, Remco and a bunch of others. Fingers crossed for a close race.

[Johnny Brown]

I don't think ITV have any coverage this year, it's either GCN+, Discovery+ or Eurosport.

GCN seem flaky with getting highlights up on time and not getting confused between the long and short highlights.

Daily coverage on S4C…

[Paul B]

Quest didn't excel yesterday with "well who's that then" and when the first group crossed the line "can't help you there with that shot" commentary.

The TTT seemed pretty daft. Regardless of the rain, it was pretty dark by the end!

[shurt]

I don't think ITV have any coverage this year, it's either GCN+, Discovery+ or Eurosport.

GCN seem flaky with getting highlights up on time and not getting confused between the long and short highlights.

Daily coverage on S4C…

Can prob make that work with a VPN.

I've been told you can watch all the classics on Australian TV that way. Never tried it personally........

[blaciqui]

I don't know if you've started to follow La Vuelta, as a Spaniard I hope you haven't, the first 3 stages were so awful. Organisational errors that make me feel ashamed...

[Paul B]

Vuelta a Espana: Four arrested over plot to sabotage stage three:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/66647757

[Paul B]

If anyone can enlighten me as to:
a) what happened to Remco and his GC race (and the subsequent stage win)?; and,
b) what on earth Jumbo's tactics were today?

I'd be grateful.

Also:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nathan-van-hooydonck-in-life-threatening-condition-after-car-accident/

which sounds utterly horrendous.

[sxrxg]

Remco had his GC race self destruct on the Tourmalet stage, didn't have the legs for the long high mountains. Since he was then so far back in GC he has been able to get in the breakaway for stage wins/mountains jersey. Yesterday since he took so much time back he chose to lose another 15 minutes to ensure he is not in the GC race and will probably go for another stage win again today.

As for Jumbo such a dominant performance, Jonas seems to have attacked as he had the legs and they want a second place rider as close to Sepp in case he can't get through the third week as a team leader and cracks (funny seeing him get accused of mechanical doping as well...). Don't think that Roglic is super happy about the tactics though and funny seeing his missus ripping into the team on social media.

In other Jumbo news sad to see one of their other riders has been caught doping, they have of course banned the rider however the full house searches brought back memories of the bad old days. Let's hope the whole Jumbo story is really good sports science and some bicarbonate of soda for the good of cycling long term.

[Duma]

Good luck with that. Stage 16 of the Tour really soured cycling for me after years of gradual  increasing faith and interest.

[Offwidth]

Good luck with that. Stage 16 of the Tour really soured cycling for me after years of gradual  increasing faith and interest.

Am I missing something here (am aware of the ketone stuff)? An individual mountain time trial in week 3 is always going to highlight differences between those leading riders who are normally on a par but have big gaps in relative fatigue. Just look what Remco can do after a good rest, despite loosing it a few days before.

[Paul B]

Pogs result was impressive. Jonas' was out of this world. I linked the power data over on the TdF thread; take a look and see what you think?

Badly phrased question perhaps. I was interested in why Remco seemed to tank so badly?

[Offwidth]

The explanation was even if Remco went as fast as he could he was going to lose so much time the Podium race was over. Hence he slowed more to save energy for potential stage wins and other jerseys.

I fully recognise the cynicism around exceptional performance and the history of drug cheats getting away with consistent illegal behaviour but I also won't forget, in terms of French cynicism, nearly all the French riders were exposed as well around the time the Armstrong fallout happened. The doctors involved also had clients who were famous footballers, tennis stars etc. International sport is obviously corrupt and seems more so when more money is involved.

[Paul B]

The explanation was even if Remco went as fast as he could he was going to lose so much time the Podium race was over. Hence he slowed more to save energy for potential stage wins and other jerseys.

So he was never really a GC contender (as many of his critics seem to suggest)? 

I think this sums up today well (i.e. WTF):
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racing/analysis-what-is-going-on-with-jumbo-visma-and-sepp-kuss

Roglic doesn't come across well in those quotes and seems to gloss over the fact it's a team sport which he's benefited from previously.

[Offwidth]

Of course Remco was a contender, he was the defending champion and last year was in red ahead of Primoz before he crashed on stage 16. Saying otherwise is daft gossip.

Jumbo were much stronger this year though, and on the day before yesterday their rivals gifted Jumbo an even tighter stranglehold by not chasing Jonas (incredibly strange tactics). Jumbo certainly didn't expect Jonas to gain so much time on Sebb: his stage win was a statement for a best friend and teammate in hospital in critical condition.

I think the Jumbo tactics yesterday made less sense but still some (although I seem to be in a minority).  Sepp still has the lead but is in an untested situation for him. There are two more really hard stages and if Sepp cracks (with the cumulative fatique of being in red for days he hasn't faced before) and Primoz and Jonas lost time pointlessly, with some subsequently bad luck, like a crash, they could still risk the race. If we face the same situation at the finish today and they don't help him to stay in red when there are no close contenders around, then I'd say the critics are right, as even more time over 4 minutes is almost certainly enough to defend one hard stage.

[wasbeen]

What leaves a bad taste in my mouth about yesterday is that Primoz and Jonas put time in to Sepp when there was no real need to. The amount of time was not a massive amount but the act was itself enough to show that even if Kuss wins from here, it is only because they allowed him to, which would be a pretty hollow victory. Dropping the red jersey is bad/disrespectful enough at the best of times but when it is someone who has given up on their own ambitions and emptied the tank countless times so that Primoz and Jonas can win, in my mind it makes them look like complete cunts.

[steveri]

I’d agree with that, if Sepp takes the overall it would feel like a victory gifted by stronger riders, rather than yesterday being an insurance decision from the team. Jumbo are so strong, one of them will win barring insane bad luck and combined bad days. They could afford to play along to support an incredible super domestique that’s been key to numerous victories.

[sxrxg]

I know it would be nice for GC Kuss to win but the reality is that these riders contracts will be written with win bonus in them especially for a grand tour. Some like Jonas/Roglic may have a six figure win bonus on the line whereas Kuss won't likely have this in his contract as it isn't his defined role in the team and what he was signed for. At the end of the day they are professionals and their job, would any of us give up a 6 figure bonus for a work collegue just because that collegue has previously helped you to achieve something (that they were get paid to do and is their role in the team)?

[Offwidth]

Certainly looks like they want to get Sepp to win now. Today is flat so wind and crashes are the main risks and Saturday's stage is like a classic: long and lots of cat 3 lumps.

[sxrxg]

It looks like overnight the management decided the publicity they were getting wasn't a good look for Jumbo so a deal has been struck with Jonas and Primoz to support Kuss. Imagine that the decision was above the heads of the DS at the race and the deal is the management/owner/sponsor getting something sorted out to ensure that the riders aren't financially out of pocket by being told not to race. Personally i'm not sure if i like this, whilst it is a nice reward for Sepp for years of service surely the strongest rider should be winning a Grand Tour.

[tim palmer]

Slightly off topic Wiggins-Froome 2012, was wiggins gifted the tour?

I am pleased kuss is going to win,  deserves it for pulling Jonas and primoz up countless hills over the past few years.  The last time on the  angliru he bailed out primoz in a major way did he not?

[Offwidth]

Surely the strongest rider should be winning a Grand Tour.

There are plenty of examples down the years on bike races where the strongest rider didn't win because of: within the team,  the team leader being given priority over a stronger super domestique; and outside the team a stronger team leader in another team lacking quality team support. Team time trial stages actively benefit the richer teams with more strength in depth. That's before we look at tnings like sport washing and potential drug cheats.

[Paul B]

I'd be interested to see 'strongest rider' defined even within Jumbo's recent TdF lineup.

[highrepute]

Well we got what we asked for GC Kiss. And it was boring!

On the subject of Jonas's performance in the TdF time trial meaning he's doping. Does this mean all outlying performances are doped. This image makes Powell and Bolt look like serious drug users.

[Paul B]

No, it doesn't. However, when someone is putting out a power (W/kg) far greater than everyone else all of a sudden and that  effort registers above power curves derived from the "ate a steak" era then it's hardly surprising that a few people raise their eyebrows? Jonas trounced Pog when Pog registered a ridiculously good power output for the stage.

Power is beautifully simple as a measure and removes the majority of uncertainty regarding external influences that a measure such as time (as you've posted) doesn't.

[joel182]

Well we got what we asked for GC Kiss. And it was boring!

On the subject of Jonas's performance in the TdF time trial meaning he's doping. Does this mean all outlying performances are doped. This image makes Powell and Bolt look like serious drug users.

I mean, yeah, we should think Powell and Bolt were using PEDs? Powell literally tested positive for performanceenhancing drugs when he was competing - though fortunately for him some supplement manufacturer had apparently been putting drugs in the supplement he was taking when he tested positive.



The all-time men’s 100m list with names associated with doping crossed off

[remus]

Well we got what we asked for GC Kiss. And it was boring!

On the subject of Jonas's performance in the TdF time trial meaning he's doping. Does this mean all outlying performances are doped. This image makes Powell and Bolt look like serious drug users.

Not that I necessarily disagree with your overall point, but I don't find that graph very convincing. Where did that trend line come from? Why does it level off there? Why are those error bars that size?

I'm generally pretty skeptical of claims along the lines of "the limit of human performance in sport X is y".

[highrepute]

Well we got what we asked for GC Kiss. And it was boring!

On the subject of Jonas's performance in the TdF time trial meaning he's doping. Does this mean all outlying performances are doped. This image makes Powell and Bolt look like serious drug users.

Not that I necessarily disagree with your overall point, but I don't find that graph very convincing. Where did that trend line come from? Why does it level off there? Why are those error bars that size?

I'm generally pretty skeptical of claims along the lines of "the limit of human performance in sport X is y".

I agree, I thought the same about that graph in the TdF thread that was used to suggest Jonas doped.

No, it doesn't. However, when someone is putting out a power (W/kg) far greater than everyone else all of a sudden and that  effort registers above power curves derived from the "ate a steak" era then it's hardly surprising that a few people raise their eyebrows? Jonas trounced Pog when Pog registered a ridiculously good power output for the stage.

Power is beautifully simple as a measure and removes the majority of uncertainty regarding external influences that a measure such as time (as you've posted) doesn't.

Jonas hasn't released his power data so any figures youve seen must be estimated based on time and external influences.

Well we got what we asked for GC Kiss. And it was boring!

On the subject of Jonas's performance in the TdF time trial meaning he's doping. Does this mean all outlying performances are doped. This image makes Powell and Bolt look like serious drug users.

I mean, yeah, we should think Powell and Bolt were using PEDs? Powell literally tested positive for performanceenhancing drugs when he was competing - though fortunately for him some supplement manufacturer had apparently been putting drugs in the supplement he was taking when he tested positive.



The all-time men’s 100m list with names associated with doping crossed off

Christ that's pretty depressing.

[Paul B]

Jonas hasn't released his power data so any figures youve seen must be estimated based on time and external influences.

Correct, but not blindly, and I think it's a useful model. The article is linked in the TdF thread and is caveated as follows:
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,15446.msg680068.html#msg680068

The Dane did the climb on a time-trial bike and we included in the calculation a lower CdA than usual and back-tested the calculations on different riders who posted their power on Strava. However standing behind the accuracy of the calculation is more difficult than usual due to the use of a time-trial bike and his high speed on the climb.

With the context of the TT following a performance where Jonas looked wrecked (then a rest day) and then the comments he himself made about the power data on his head unit being wild (this is v. weird) then as I said, it's enough to make me raise my eyebrows (and that of course doesn't mean I'm correct). Perhaps the Ketones are just THAT good? Shame they taste like shit:


I fear we're going off topic.

For the Vuelta, there's a reel on Insta showing Gee talking about Roglic putting time into Kuss and it being unnecessary if anyone needed another opinion on the matter.

[highrepute]

Yes, very much my fault for dragging it off topic.

G's podcast Watts Occuring is very good for a bit of insight into the peleton from point view of a Welshman.

[Paul B]

G's podcast Watts Occuring is very good for a bit of insight into the peleton from point view of a Welshman.

A no nonsense insight I assume (on brand)?

Remco was fairly impressive chasing back on today but just didn't quite have enough at the finish.

That's a good season for JV!